"Computer-aided miniatures gaming -- concept video..." Topic

This video shows a concept for a future game interface that crosses the line between traditional miniatures gaming and video gaming. The video is work safe -- just sit through the short commercial at the beginning and watch the video through to the end -- it's worth it.

link

Right now the Microsoft Surface computer (a computer built into a tabletop that reads multiple touch points) could be used to create an experience similar to this. The main points of interest for me are the "hidden" areas where the player peeks under his hand while hiding his units from the other player.

So, what do you guys think? A rather pedestrian video game with a cool interface, or miniatures gaming of the future?

No, the problem with the table-top interface is that your opponent sees everything you're doing.

That being said the table-top interface is not actually part of the game: it will use a standard interface based on the other video they posted.

The best double-blind wargame on consoles right now is EndWar (although it suffers from serious problems with its online TOW campaign.)

In End War unless you have a Command Vehicle with a UAV your perspective is limited to the units on the field. As for issuing orders you simply speak them. For more natural than always using a keyboard/mouse or gamepad.

Interesting. I'll have to look for the other video.

As for enhancing gaming with this type of interface, there are multiple ways to address the problems.

As for the opponent seeing what you're doing… that could be handled with screens (a simple piece of cardboard, or a curved piece of plastic) placed on top of the surface.

You could use separate laptops to control and manage your own units and then have them meet in the central tapletop display.

Or there could be some sort of handheld controls (think Wii controls, but with mini screens like Gameboys or smart phones have).

Right now I'm just brainstorming to think of what kind of stuff you could build with this type of interface.

This is the meaning of life!
This was the exact thing I was born to do and when something like this is released ,will be the last day anyone will ever see me again. I will probably die of starvation from playing this for to long.

You could use separate laptops to control and manage your own units and then have them meet in the central tapletop display.

Yes, the problem as been solved already! They're called the PS3 and Xbox 360! In EndWar you can have 4 x 4 battles online. Each unit is a platoon (so you actually see 4 little vehicles or 4 squads in each unit.) You can command up to 12 platoons at a time. In multi-player they're divided among your team. Essentially it's battalion vs battalion.

YouTube link

Cool video, but it's not miniatures gaming.
--
Tim

Precisely! Each has advantages and disadvantages. Even with spotting rules or "blinds" or dummy counters it's impossible to conduct a sneaky on-table flank attack in a miniatures game without some sort of artificial mechanic.

But in games such as EndWar and Combat Mission you can actually use terrain and deception to launch a surprise attack in a given area of the battlefield. And you can still play with friends!

But while miniatures can't recreate truly hidden movement (at least in the absence of a double-blind setup and umpire) I certainly enjoy gaming with friends over a table filled with toy soldiers (in fact I did so in my basement Tuesday night and will doing so again on Saturday!).

Interesting computer interface controls. I don't see much future in that kind of head to head play. More likely they would be using a little iphone like control far from their opponent.

Also, which player was seeing the Tiger tanks from ground view? Was that projected on another screen behind the Allied player?;-)

I just got done with a week of PC frustration. As neet as the video looks, Ive been had by the Computer Games industry one to many times to be enthused by this. Cost, bad compatibilty and poor service from the Industry has been the standard for so long now its a wonder why people put up with it. Every game I have bought for the last several years has come at a high monetary and frustration cost. The cost of the game is negligible compared to the cost in equipment it always needs in upgrades. The cost in chasing around to find the right parts, dealing with poor service and the inevitable glitches that come with every game and every new instillation of computer parts. This one like every other will be no different. Not to mention the high potential for online cheating and the issues the internet bring that complicates the matter more.

Computer assisted miniatures gaming is one thing, it can be a valuable tool. Double blind on a board is possible with a computer program. This game however will be graphically intense require a modern and expensive machine and will have all the pitfalls PC RTS gaming has always had. Ive seen many titles that come close and are tempting. Lots of "if the only did" this or that it would be like miniatures. The industry though is gearing towards another crowd and there will always bee near misses but never a direct hit in converting miniatures to RTS PC.

Id love to see more development though of PC programs design to compliment miniatures instead of eliminate them. Melding the two together would help this hobby greatly.

I would like to see a wargame campaign manager – perhaps it exists, if so let me know where!

My wish list (in no particular order):
Custom map generation (historic/fictional)hex,node,square movement;
Multiple factions/armies;
Army builder;
Political alliances;
LAN/PBEM access by each faction – no need for a moderator;
Fog of war visibility;
Some form of resource management/supply chain/logistics;
Not rule/period specific – DBA, FOG, Grande Armee, FOW;
Battle resolution on the tabletop;
Input results to calculate & implement effects.
Repeat until strategic objectives are met.

Pipe dream or does such software exist?

Cheers,
Wilf

Berthier does some of the things you require.

Wilf12358 posted in the racingspider games forum, and I'll post my reply here as well.

From racingspider games forum
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Hiya. Campaigner is a pretty good solution for a large part of what you're asking, though there are only two factions (but any number of players) and no real supply system to speak of. There were lots of great additions that we wanted to put in (a more complete supply/logistics model) that just didn't make it.

Unfortunately, not enough interest in Campaigner meant a lot of great features just aren't in it. :(

But, I'll answer what we DO have:
Custom Map Generation: via FlexMap, Campaigner uses point-based movement, so no hexes or squares.
Multiple Factions: There are two opposed factions, any number of players per faction though.
Armies: As many units as you allow can wage battles across the map.
Political Alliances: No, I wish it was. :(
LAN: Not so much unless copying the file counts
PBEM: Absolutely
Fog of War: Wonderful FoW system if you ask me. Uses the "size" of the unit as well as terrain and its mapped THROUGHOUT the turn, thus an enemy can "cross" the line of sight of another unit and disappear.
Supply: Yes and no. Custom resource generation is in Campaigner, as well as custom rules. The rule/resource system is quite robust, but doesn't automatically require resources for units. That bit just didn't make it into Campaigner.
Battle Resolution: Yup. Done on the tabletop and you tell Campaigner what was killed and who won.
Strategic Objectives: We got 'em, whether based on area objectives, destroying installations, killing units or gather a specific resource (or any combination), Campaigner has an excellent victory conditions system.
Rulesets: Campaigner doesn't care one iota what game system you're using, doesn't care what era it is either.

The two major holes in Campaigner (if I may be so bold) are a lack of a fatigue/supply system. While we do have resources for custom rule use, there isn't anything for automatic fatigue or supply consumption.
The other, is the simplified diametrically opposed factions. A player is either with THEM or THOSE GUYS (Red or Blue or whatever you rename them to).

If there was enough interest in Campaigner, we'd see to it that multiple factions and fatigue/supply would be included. Support for Campaigner HAS NOT ceased though. If there is a bug, it'll be fixed, its just that new features would be very slow in coming out.

If you need a specific sample campaign, let me know. I'd be happy to throw together a demo campaign that you can play with the free version of Campaigner.
=================

The idea of the 'Magic Lens' (a camera tied to a PDA) always appealed more to me than the touch tables:

YouTube link
Project page of this research group at:
link

One can imagine laying out the battlefield, you only see your own troops on the PDA screen, and enemy troops as they become visible … possibly mixed with real miniatures on the table.

BTW, projector-based technology is also more suited to link up with miniature wargaming: put projectors around the table (calibrate them for perspective deformation …), and they can project all sorts of additional info on the table: not only unit stats, but also show additional terrain effects such as flowing rivers, burning houses etc. Of course, you need at least one camera to make a feedback loop, because the software has to detect the location of all scenery items, units etc.

Pico-projectors the size of a handheld device are now commonly available, and could be used for this sort of thing.