"Battle of Dan-no-ura - Rules for Tides?" Topic

The climactic, decisive naval battle of the Japanese Gempei War was fought in the tidal straits of Shimonoseki in 1185.

According to the chronicles, the strong tide flowed in one direction during the first phase of the battle giving an edge to the Taira ships. Then the direction changed and the Minamoto opposition had the upper hand.

So are there any naval sets with rules for coastal tides? If not, any suggestions from the naval gaming experts here?

There's a simple boardgame depicting the battle that apparently simulates this feature but I can't read Japanese :(

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Grateful for any suggestions.
Mike

I think that the simplest approach would be to give a movement bonus to a ship moving in the direction of tides, and/or penalty for ships moving in other directions.

Griefbringer

Thanks, Griefbringer, I was thinking much the same and then got hung up on how movement would occur when a craft moved at an angle (including perpendicular) to the tidal direction.

I was also considering treating the influence of tides like wind but then got caught up wondering about the degree of both on oars vs sail craft. At Dan-no-ura there appears to have been a wide variety of both types
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from a few large Chinese-style junks to small row-boats – sail and/or oars. There's even a suggestion that Japanese naval battles were fought as "land battles at sea" with craft being merely floating platforms, sometimes even tied together. Perhaps I'm getting sidelined by over-complication?

Bottom line is I know next to nothing about naval warfare although I'd like to know more.

sources:
"Heike Monogatari" – chronicle translated by Helen McCullough
"Fighting Ships of the Far East (2)" – Stephen Turnbull

What scale are you thinking and whose ships?

Funny, I've been researching this battle, possibly for presentation at Historicon this summer. I was inspired by the story of Hoichi the Earless in the movie Kwaidan. I like the simplified version of the battle depicted in the movie (it even looks like a game).

Good question, Uesugi. I bought a 15mm Scheltrum seki-bune (FECB2)
scheltrum.co.uk/east15.html
some time ago – its a fairly generic, simple boat that could be used for the whole samurai period including Dan-no-ura.

Easy to scratch-build too and I've got a lot of 15mm samurai to man the decks! But I think a smaller scale would give a better representation of the battle – 6-10mm and scratchbuilds.

"Thanks, Griefbringer, I was thinking much the same and then got hung up on how movement would occur when a craft moved at an angle (including perpendicular) to the tidal direction."

The tide current acts like a vector on the movement. So move the ship as if there is no current and then move it in the direction of the current a distance proportionate to the speed of the current. (Bit difficult to describe in words, sorry.)

rddfxx – that's a big inspiration for me too! I love the haunting, stylised version of the battle in that film (/movie ;~) ). Some very good reference material subtlety introduced from the Heike Monogatari and Genpei Seisuki – banners, mon, armour etc.

Hope you do it for Historicon…and we see photos!

Nice idea for a wargame. A few months ago I read my .10$ copy of "Tale of the Heike" and the description of Dan-no-ura and its aftermath was thought provoking and moving.

My ten cent version came from a library book sale. It had a few marks of highlighter in it, but no big deal.

BTW the Kwaidan battle scenes were awesome and surrealistic. Like a scroll painting.

No English subtitles and somewhat edited but still poetic…

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'The imperial grandmother turned to the young Emperor; " This country is a land of sorrow. I take you now to a happy realm…We have a capital under the sea." With these words she plunged with him to the bottom of the ocean…'

Did you guys who watched the Hoichi clip in Kwaidan catch the armor the ghost samurai wears? He wears a tanko with additional sode, etc. Very interesting. Maybe some samurai may have still worn tanko in the 12th c.

Quote:
"The tide current acts like a vector on the movement. So move the ship as if there is no current and then move it in the direction of the current a distance proportionate to the speed of the current."

Thanks, Mike. Looks like I'll have to brush up on the old applied maths and physics!

I am discussing the plausability of 6, 10, or 15mm hard plastic Asian Ships here:

link

Could be a cheap and easy way to collect massive amounts of ships for the Korean invasion or Dan no Ura!

Does any one have any pictures of the Sceltrum boat assembled & painted up? I particularly am interested in the Seki Bune, Ataka Bune, and the Turtleship.

Thanks.

Osprey did a book a few years back called Fighting ships of the Far East.

They did 2 books of which i have #2 which deals with Japan and Korea,maybe it has the info you seek Uesugi Kenshin.

Captain Gideon

I'm actually looking for pictures of the models themselves. They only have line drawings on their website. I want to see how they paint up!