"Battlefront acquires Wargames Illustrated and Gale Force 9" Topic

"do you think this would be bad taste if i told you "

Not at all, very interesting. I am intrigued as to why FoW requires a "bootcamp", though – are they really that complicated?

I'll have to pass on the invitation though, Manchester is just too far from the south-east UK where I live (contrary to popular belief)

Interesting – as regular buyer of WI I would agree that it has gone downhill – articles on boardgames that revolve around topics such as polar bear hunting, too many extremely minor interest subjects (smuggling and kiln riots spring to mind) – I enjoy the ads and the photos which are much better than those in Miniature Wargames. If it becomes a house journal for BF that will be a pity but seems sadly likely – still the current owners made a commercial decision and if people don't buy the new version it won't last long.
Amused to see the usual suspects out, knocking BF of course (as someone who has suffered at their poor quality control I am not a fanboy btw) – having a crack at the rules cos you don't like them or the company is one thing but the old historial argument – having gamed for 36 years I've played a fair few sets esp of WW2 rules and none of them are realistic whatever that means – how could they be – Mr Snorbens had it right "I'm a wargamer, not a "historical hobbyist" " anyone who thinks that their pushing toy soldiers round a table is some form of historically valid simulation rather than a game has got some strange ideas – how to you simulate blind terror, panic, the fear of death on Friday night in the back room of the Dog and Duck – as my wife (not an English first language speaker so excuse the fact that this is non PC) often says when she goes to shows with me – "some people here look like mental patient" – its playing with toys – if you want to do simulations then join the army. Again having been involved in re-enactment in the past its the same there – take the element of stomach churning fear out of it and its just dressing up and playing at soldiers, unless you purport to re-enact barracks life – but not running about a field going bang bang!

"average teenaged FoW gamer" Mike Snorbens
Actually must be mixing in wrong circles as from looking at photos on BF website and shows I have been to up in the north of England, I have rarely seen any teenagers (even though many of us up here are stunted by rickets and poor diet and thus only able to cope with the superficial writing that BF churns out.) PS anyone who thinks that the original evil empire of GW btw has not done much for education and spotty herbert teenagers should try reading some of their 40k books – I am often amazed by the breadth of the vocabulary used – certainly far in advance of that used in most newspapers in the UK for instance.

Is anybody tracking the moving goalposts being used throughout this thread? It's always fun to see if ANY publisher or set of rules can meet the varying and ever-twisting requirements for "good" after one of these little outbursts.

- Bob

Bobstro – Sorry, no one has actually stepped up to name the rules that take into account everyone seems to want in a "realistic" game.

koyote – the "chicks"? Are you serious? Yeah, THIS is the THE HOBBY to attract the chicks. *snicker*

"Not at all, very interesting. I am intrigued as to why FoW requires a "bootcamp", though – are they really that complicated?"

I am thinking not so much complicated as to introduce total noobs to the miniatures hobby within the time period of WW2. Hobby recruiting? Well yeah.

"If it becomes a house journal for BF that will be a pity but seems sadly likely – still the current owners made a commercial decision and if people don't buy the new version it won't last long."

I suspect it will be supported by the BF fans out there. This may yet be another recruiting tool.

"… but the old historial argument – having gamed for 36 years I've played a fair few sets esp of WW2 rules and none of them are realistic whatever that means – how could they be…"

I agree with you on this, how can the rules simulate the horror and all that?

"…"I'm a wargamer, not a "historical hobbyist" "

It's nice to know that there are others out there.

"anyone who thinks that their pushing toy soldiers round a table is some form of historically valid simulation rather than a game has got some strange ideas"

Yeah, but you have to admit if you played a game and you did better than the historical generals did… doesn't that give you a warm fuzzy feeling inside? OK OK, that is a hyperbole.

" – how to you simulate blind terror, panic, the fear of death on Friday night in the back room of the Dog and Duck – "

There are 2 ways I know how:

1] Join the military or mercenary unit and go right into combat.

2] Go to the rough part of town alone, at night with wads of cash on you.

So, if any of you want to try a "more realistic" game, why don't you try Advanced Squad Leader's Red Barricades?

Been there, done that, had fun.

Hywel Dda48 said:

"average teenaged FoW gamer" Mike Snorbens
Actually must be mixing in wrong circles as from looking at photos on BF website and shows I have been to up in the north of England, I have rarely seen any teenagers

Capt John Miller said:

I am thinking not so much complicated as to introduce total noobs to the miniatures hobby within the time period of WW2. Hobby recruiting? Well yeah.

Interesting. Is it me, or do these two statemenst appear to be in conflict?

Several people have claimed that FoW is great for introducing young "new blood" to the hobby, yet Hywel's comment implies exactly the opposite!

John the OFm wrote:

If all you nay-sayers would devote half the energy you spend on bashing FoW to solving world hunger this would be a far nicer planet to live on.

This from the man with the record number of posts on TMP – what could you have done had you spent your time more usefully?

"Several people have claimed that FoW is great for introducing young "new blood" to the hobby, yet Hywel's comment implies exactly the opposite!"

Why do new players automatically have to be young?

"Why do new players automatically have to be young?"

They don't of course. But the impression you get from some posts here is that it's the young guys who are playing 40K that FoW are weaning off into historicals.

"John the OFm wrote:

If all you nay-sayers would devote half the energy you spend on bashing FoW to solving world hunger this would be a far nicer planet to live on."

derek wrote….

"This from the man with the record number of posts on TMP – what could you have done had you spent your time more usefully?"

obviously John could have solved world hunger to the point he would have made the entire planet obese!

Don't give him an evil Plan!

Thanks for the entertaining read people. Not sure why some of you bother arguing with Mike S, you are arguing over two sides of the same coin. Patently his interest lies more in the 'historical' aspect of wargaming where as for the others it is in the 'game' aspect. And of course he's never wrong ;-)

And for Mike's benefit to make sure it is clear, I'm not suggesting you don't like the 'game' aspect, just that perhaps the game is a vehicle to bring about your passion rather than the end result.

Each to their own really.

Steve P

The bootcamp idea was thought up because
1)Its a popular ruleset for new gamers and where some clubs may have just started playing it and so we pass on the skills we have learnt onto them.
2) As it is a game and a very popular tourny game,how you set up can determin what happens in the game and how the game plays out and if you win or loose.
3)We also try to teach people playing that the main impudence is to have fun.
4)For them to be able with what they learn to pass on to their club members and help them get new members.
5) To help encourage those who might be nervous about tournys to try them out by giving them the en-couragement to do them with the skills they can learn and so keep the torny scene healthy which may also en-courage people into the hobby and keep clubs alive.
6)The bootcamps are kept at £3.00 GBP so that it is affordable for anyone to attend and with that they get as much tea and coffee they can drink and also get a bacon sarnie all included in the £3.00 GBP
7)This is a great way for people to try a ruleset before buying an army and rule books and if they dont have one we let them use one of ours for the day.
8) We aim to have experianced players teach Bootcamp attendies and many of them are very experienced tourny players and champions.
9)Its a great way to meet other players and to chat about the game itself.
We dont do bootcamp to make money but to help keep the hobby healthy and introduce the hobby to new blood and get clubs talking with each other.I know this is a bit off thread but that is what the bootcamps are for and we aim to do it for as many rulesets as possable.
regards
Paul Reid
MAWS Bootcamps

We would also like other clubs all over the world to do Bootcamps and help keep our hobby healthy.

MikeS wrote:

[…] They don't of course. But the impression you get from some posts here is that it's the young guys who are playing 40K that FoW are weaning off into historicals.

If you insist on generalizing, yes. But along with the obvious converts from an existing very popular game, there are many, many others. Myself, I was relieved to find WWII historicals available after good naturedly playing WHFB with my sons for several years. They were old enough to appreciate the history, and I finally got to play a WWII game after 20 years after giving up the first time. In the meantime, I've brought over a couple of "old guys" my age. So while the kids were an excuse to play, there are obviously a good number of adults who'd like to play WWII historicals, but can't find a regular game or opponent, and don't relish playing by themselves. Bringing both young and old(er) players into the game aren't mutually exclusive.

As far as the term "bootcamp", I've always seen it presented as a session devoted to a single subject, rather than the range of topics you'd find at a typical convention. No different than a dedicated afternoon of demo games for a single system.

- Bob

In my area I've seen more adults switch from other wargames to FoW more than "kids". I've also met "new" adult wargamers who started because of FoW, through the "bootcamp" too, although I now suspect they were gamers of some kind in the past but I never did ask. They seemed new to miniature wargaming though.

On to the rag, I hope they include at least 50% Battlefront material. I'd buy that, if not subscribe to it. It might get me interested in FoW again. I'm currently enjoying the Napoleonic Era right now though…

All I can say is that Bangor seems to have a lot of teenagers playing FoW as well as Warhammer – and having a shop on the high steet that seels a lot of BF kit helps.

Your mileage may of course vary.

As for the 'bootcamps'… I went to the last one MAWS did for Fields of Glory and have to sy it was wonderful.

First off there was a table set up for 2 noobs (inc. yours truly) to play out a game under the watchful eyes of an experience player. The other noobs sat around, asked questions and learned a lot.

Other tables were available for more experienced players to ask specific questions.

In the afternoon we each played a game – with plenty of help available.

Throw in a sizeable amount of dead pig and it was a great introduction to the rules.

And I now of one 11yo who went who is probably soon to be on the doubles circuit with his Dad. And the swine has the best dice luck of anyone I've met, so look out for them…

But to summarise – it's not that the rules are complex that makes a bootcamp necessary. But having your interpretaitons confirmed, and hints given – along with gmes amongst new faces, is a worthwhile thing to do.

As far as the term "bootcamp", I've always seen it presented as a session devoted to a single subject, rather than the range of topics you'd find at a typical convention.

Well the term bootcamp implies a learning experience, but also a fairly unpleasant one, which is why it is a natural for FOW I guess! :-)
Visions of groups of "recruits" running round the hall chanting pages from the rule book, while "instructors" scream "You're in the FOW Army now soldier!" at them. I also wonder if recalcitrant "recruits" are subjected to a "beasting" (whatever that is) if they express a preference for playing Command Decsion?! :-)

P.S. For those with a sense of humour bypass the above is a JOKE!

Look, this is a good thing for wargaming. We all talk about exposing the hobby to new people and then bitch about it when it happens. With 8 pages of FOW the FOW people will pick the zine up. When they open it they will be exposed all sorts of different types of wargaming.

There is a big difference between BF buying WI and GW taking control of WD. By taking control WD, GW cutout it's competition. Foundry, Gripping Beats, Victrix, Old Glory, Perries, Warlord, Britania, etc., etc, are NOT BF's competitors. If BF wants a zine for his products, it would be much cheaper to produce their own zine and push it through their product channels. It seems like what they want to do is expand the awareness of FOW to gamers who do not use the game. Perhaps, they are hoping to increase their share of the British market. This would be a good way to do it. Their own zine would not have that effect.

If this is true, turning the zine into a house organ makes no sense. It would cut them off from the market they are trying to reach. Nevertheless, this can work for our benefit. It will expose FOW players to the larger world of historical wargaming. If this is the plan, then it's a win-win situation for all of us, even you Snorbens. :))

By the way Mike, let us know how much WI stiffed you. Maybe we can pass-the-hat and then get some peace and quite. :))) By the way, didn't you write a column for WI on the state of the hobby? If you are the one then I want you to know that I miss that. Although at times you sounded like a shill for Foundry and then for the Perries.

Rich

"By the way Mike, let us know how much WI stiffed you."

To clarify a point, I have never said that I personally have not been paid for an article. What I did say (but apparently not clearly enough) was that I was considering submitting an article when I started hearing (here on TMP and elsewhere) a lot about other people who had submitted articles but who had not been paid for them. As I said, this acted as a disincentive for me and I never tried submitting an article. I suspect (but of course cannot prove) that others may have felt the same way. With a shortage of contributed material and an opportunity to take content provided by Foundry I can understand why Duncan may have thought this was a good idea. Of course I may be totally wrong (and,yes it wouldn't be the first time!!).

I believe Tricks was instrumental in helping some people get the payments they were owed. Perhaps he can shed some light here?

"By the way, didn't you write a column for WI on the state of the hobby? If you are the one then I want you to know that I miss that. Although at times you sounded like a shill for Foundry and then for the Perries."

No, that wasn't me.

"By the way, didn't you write a column for WI on the state of the hobby? If you are the one then I want you to know that I miss that."

Maybe you meant Mike Siggins?.

I used to collect White Dwarf, back when it actually had some hobby content: you know, 'how I converted this mini' or 'how to paint this effect' articles. I don't think I've bought a WD since #300. WD was ALWAYS a GW product, they just didn't advertise the fact for a while.

I do buy Privateer Press' No Quarter magazine, because it still has hobby articles in it (terrain ideas, and the best way to paint brass I've ever seen).

I hope that this makes WI as nice as the early WDs were, or like NQ (even though NQ is dedicated to the 'Iron Kingdoms' world of Privateer Press). Based on the second Art of War book from BF, it's going to be a huge improvement. AoW2 had this huge section on markings for the Germans: ranks, divisional/national, and even camo. It's completely insane for 15mm figures (the eye can't resolve details at that distance), but they found someone to paint all those details on 15mm troops to show how it was done. If they do something like that for Nappies, that's great, too.

By the way, did you guys know that Battlefront made a smaller version of the 2nd edition rules that was *given* away to everyone who had bought a copy of the first edition rules? It doesn't have all the rules in it, like the battalion-and-larger battles, but it was FREE. My copy lives in my army case.

Do I have issues with the level of detail that BF has gone into with the Normandy campaign? Oh, yes. I would have put the D minus 1, D-Day, and Bloody Omaha books into one book, and released a second book for the breakout from Normandy (Villiers-Bocage, Monty's Meatgrinder, and Operation Cobra). And the entire release would have happened at roughly the same pace as the real event. initial release June 5/6, then the breakout possibly as late as August that same year!

========

I'd love to own a few of the command halftracks that CD make; too bad that they won't work with my local game store. I prefer to spend my money at the FLGS, since they have devoted half the store to a play area (which they don't charge us to use and costs them serious money to rent). I even had the store order the tracks for me, they were never shipped. I gave up trying to contact CD. For the record, half of my infantry are NOT BF, they're from Eureka.

It's a different world between the US and UK in wargaming scenes. My closest independent game store is 5 miles away. There's a Hobbytown USA that recently picked up some BF product, but they don't have enough of anything to build an army with. Hobbytown is also about 5 miles away. The next closest game store is over 100 miles away. I think there's a GW store about 300 miles away (Salt Lake City), otherwise it's the Seattle Battle Bunker, more than 500 miles away. All these distances are one-way, *not round-trip*.

Wargaming conventions? A friend of mine just went to Templecon, which is in Rhode Island, some 1500+ miles away. Otherwise, there's Origins and Gencon, 1000+miles away. There might be other ones, but I've not heard of them.

=====

I don't have the time&money resources to chase down primary sources in english, let alone a foreign language, so the information on the Battlefront website is a good start for me. It motivated a friend of mine to build the 442 RCT (she's japanese-american, and her grandfolks were relocated to the camps). She's done more research since, but the article on the 442 is what started her into building the force in the first place.

Then again, I consider it a good day when I get to push some resin/pewter around and blow stuff up. Do historical company-level tactics work in FoW? Yes, they really do. Several of the guys that play in the local group are Army vets, and they like the feel it gives. I don't want to play a larger-scale game, because the Company-level actions are the interesting part of the story of WW2 to me, not the Brigade or larger actions.

Best of luck to them.

Lion in the Stars wrote:

[…] By the way, did you guys know that Battlefront made a smaller version of the 2nd edition rules that was *given* away to everyone who had bought a copy of the first edition rules? It doesn't have all the rules in it, like the battalion-and-larger battles, but it was FREE. My copy lives in my army case.

I have a copy as well. I've been told it's the same book as in the new starter set, so kudos to BF for getting some re-use out of the idea if so. I'm not 100% convinced it's the exact same content though.

Does your local shop know they can order BF product through a US-based distributor without having to make the commitments required to deal with BF directly? I understand the current arrangement allows minimal obligation for them to get competitive pricing.

- Bob

"I have a copy as well. I've been told it's the same book as in the new starter set, so kudos to BF for getting some re-use out of the idea if so. I'm not 100% convinced it's the exact same content though."

I think it's been reprinted the same as the 2rd print run of the hardcover rulebook (the latest).
They have at least fixed the typo with awkward layout on the copy I saw at a con in January (which was 250 km away).

WD was ALWAYS a GW product, they just didn't advertise the fact for a while.

Yes it was always a GW product and has always supported their products, but of course in the early days they were a general gaming company producing products across a range of systems. It was only later they developed their own system.
This is of course quite different to BF who already have their own game, but no publication. They say on the site they plan to cover every game, scale and historical era. Remains to be seen how it works out.

Based on the second Art of War book from BF, it's going to be a huge improvement.

It could well be – both the Art of War books are really rather good. I'm looking forward to one focussing on the British – probably some time in 2012.

Just as long as they lay off the crass cover lines – "Fascist Fashions" and "Gestapo Announcements" would not go down well in WH Smiths.

Bobsto: Like I said, the small-format book doesn't have about 32 pages that the big book does, which includes the rules for playing a game with multiple companies. I'm pretty sure that the pages not included in the small book are the last 32 or 64 pages of the big book, which are a lot of the painting and modeling section (stuff you don't need in the carry-size book).

At any rate, this acquisition certainly could be a good thing. hopefully, battlefront will continue their high-quality (lots of photos and basic research) productions. Also, I hope that GF9 continues to make their warcogs/warclaws tokens.

Only as we know it

I bought the latest issue of WI yesterday to see how if it looked any different under the new management .
Apart from two large full page ads for Battlefront Miniatures figures and a glowing review of the latest FoW armylist book it looked like business as usual .
Course the mag does go to print some time ago so I guess there wont be any obvious " for FoW fanboys only " changes for a couple of months.

Sorry for the grammatical errors in my previous post – I have now done the decent thing and shot my proof reader !! lol

Um, the new management's first issue isn't supposed to be released until March or April, as a poster "in the know" wrote earlier in this thread. The magazine you are looking at is apparently done by the regular staff.

Carry on…

I thought the latest issue of WI was quite good.
Then again I like any magazine with some SCW content…:-)

Seriously, this doesn't have to be a bad thing. Let's wait and see.
Anyway I resubscribed a few days ago.

Oh, and just wanted to point out that we have two (2) shops in the entire COUNTRY selling BF material. Luckily one is just around the corner from me.
The only 'thing' I'll miss is Duncan. One of the nicest guys I ever got to know.

I thought the latest issue of WI was quite good.

But nothing to do with Battlefront. Though they did buy some advertising.

Magazines are prepared months before they hit the hit the newstands.

Minimum two or three months, typically three or four. With some bits set up well before that.

We won't be able to judge Battlefront's influence on WI properly until sometime around June or July.

And that might be a bit early.

Derek H wrote:

[…] We won't be able to judge Battlefront's influence on WI properly until sometime around June or July.

Apparently lack of having actually seen the product doesn't stop a good number of posters in this thread from judging it right now!

But yes, accurately (properly) assessing the impact will require a bit more time. :)

- Bob

"Magazines are prepared months before they hit the hit the newstands.

Minimum two or three months, typically three or four. With some bits set up well before that.

We won't be able to judge Battlefront's influence on WI properly until sometime around June or July.

And that might be a bit early."

My Missus works for a big national monthly mag and that is indeed the case with the majority of mags published in the UK.
However, when I used to advertise in WI I was always staggered that Duncan's lead up time was only 28 days! This was ten years ago, so things may have changed, (they have changed publisher in that time, I think) but it was also pre-digital publishing/photography, so if anything it could have got faster.

Knowing what Duncan is like it is probably knocked together at the last minute. I seriously doubt months of preplanning go into each issue! :-)