"Russian Fusiliers 1805-1807" Topic

I am trying to get my head round the make up of a Russian Fusilier battalion during the period from 1805 to 1807 and I am hoping that someone will be able to resolve some conflicting information.

I understand that a Grenadier Regiment had three battalions and that each battalion had four companies. I further understand that the first battalion was made up of "grenadiers" and that the second and third battalions were made up of "fusiliers".

I have come across two conflicting views on the make up of the fusilier battalions within a Grenadier Regiment. One view is that there were six "grenadier" companies and six "fusilier" companies. The other view is that there were four "grenadier" companies and eight "fusilier" companies.

The first view has a "grenadier" company in each of the "fusilier" battalions. The second view has the grenadiers in the "grenadier" battalion and the fusiliers in the two "fusilier" battalions.

Does anyone know which is more likely to be correct?

Lasalle, for the 1805-1809 period, per Tactics of the Russian Army of the Napoleonic Wars – Vols. I-II (A. Zhmodikov & Y. Zhmodikov), in a Grenadier Regiment, the organisation was: 1 x Grenadier battalion (4 companies of Grenadiers), and 2 Fusilier battalions (each of 4 companies of Fusiliers).

The organisation in which 1 Grenadier company and 3 Fusilier companies form a battalion--whether Grenadier, Musketeer, or Jäger Regiment--only comes after the new organisation was decreed on 24 October 1810 by Tsar Alexander I.

yup, agreed. It was not until the reforms where btlns were multi companies of differing troop types (names).

Thanks guys.

30 April 1802 (os) – All Army infantry regiments are ordered to consist of three four-company battalions: the Life Grenadiers – of three Grenadier battalions; other Grenadiers – of one Grenadier and two Fusilier [Fuzelernyi] battalions; Musketeers – of one Grenadier and two Musketeer battalions; Jägers – of three Jäger battalions.

OK, here's a question I've always wondered about. Was there any difference in uniform between fusiliers and grenadiers? I have not been able to find any.

As you can tell from the question at the start of the thread I am no expert on the subject and I am also interested in the answer to Widowson's question.

Prior to 1805 Grenadiers wore mitres and Musketeers wore bicornes. In 1805 Grenadiers were ordered to wear shakos with a large plume and Musketeers were ordered to wear shakos without a plume.

Judging by the artistic representations of the period the impression seems to be that the Musketeer Regiments did as they were told and adopted the shako. However, the take up of the new regulation by Grenadier Regiments seems to have been mixed.

For those Grenadier Regiments that retained the mitre, the "grenadiers" would have had the larger grenadier mitre and the "fusiliers" would have had the smaller fusilier mitre. For those Grenadier Regiments that adopted the shako with a large plume, the "grenadiers" would have had the shako with a large plume. What would the "fusiliers" have had? The same? If not, what?

Lasalle is correct, AB figures has Fusilier figures.

Sorry, the last part of my last post should have read:

"For those Grenadier Regiments that adopted the shako with a large plume, the "grenadiers" would have had the shako with a large plume but what would the "fusiliers" have had? The same? If not, what?"

Any enlightened soul able to answer this? Thanks.

Courtesy of John Cook over on the NS:

19 August 1803 felt shakos replaced hats in musketeer regiments. These early shakos were, apparently, lined with straw.

13 February 1805 shakos replaced grenadier and fusilier caps in grenadier regiments.

13 February 1805 same pattern shakos as for grenadiers above replace 1803 issue felt shakos in musketeer regiments.

1 January 1812 new pattern shako (so-called kiwer) replaces 1805 issue shako in grenadier and musketeer regiments.

- Allan

For the 1805-07 period, Grenadier regiments who had adopted the cylindrical shako had the following distinctions:

1) Grenadier Battalion (4 Companies): large black plume (red for musicians, white tip with central orange stripe front-to-back for NCOs), brass single 'grenade' badge beneath the 'national' cockade (black with thin band of orange at outer edge). Shako pompon colours: exterior per battalion (1st=White, 2nd=Yellow, 3rd=Red), with 'interior' or centre per regimental 'seniority' within the Inspectorate [See: link for details & exceptions--this is the John Cook material referred to by Allan, above]. The black ammo pouch was adorned with a circular brass badge (embossed with dual-headed eagle), with 4 flaming 'grenades'--one at each corner, with the flame pointing 'inward' towards the circular badge.
2) Fusilier Battalions (4 Companies each): As above, however no plumes, and no grenade badges on shako or ammunition pouch for Fusiliers.

Common to both Grenadiers & Fusiliers: swordknots were white strap & fringe, with the central 'acorn' (or 'bell') in the Inspectorate colour, with 'rings' above and below the 'bell' coloured as follows: 1st Company = White, 2nd = Red, 3rd = Sky-Blue, and 4th Company = Orange. NCO swordknots were a mix of black and orange, interwoven, whilst officers were silver, intertwined with three fine orange & black stripes (like their waist sashes). It appears that the Pavlov Grenadiers were the only Regiment 'honoured' to retain the mitre hats after 1805.

Prior to the introduction of the shako, the fusiliers wore a short Prussian (SYW) style of mitre, while the grenadiers wore the taller grenadier mitre. Elite Miniatures has these figures in 28mm and might have pix on their web site.

Thanks Greystreak. Good Man. Sorry to hear that the Pavlov Grenadier Regiment was the only Grenadier Regiment to retain mitres from 1805. The Anthony Barton AB Figures fusiliers in greatcoat are fantastic figures. I will just have to model the second and third battalions of the Pavlov Grenadier Regiment to use them.

For other Grenadier Regiments, the fusiliers will have to be represented by the Anthony Barton AB Figures musketeers with shako and greatcoat figures.

As usual, the best place to get correct information is Mark Conrad's translations of Viskovatov:
link

During 1805-7 fusiliers (since June 05) were distinguished by the absense of the grenade badge on the shako.

NSN

Oh boy. Viskovatov says that fusilier headwear was the same as grenadier headwear but without the grenade badge.

"13 February 1805: In all Grenadier regiments, the former grenadier and fusilier caps of combatant lower ranks are replaced by new ones based on the pattern established in 1803 for noncombatants, except not quilted. There is a brass grenade above the cockade; with a brass button on the chin strap and with a thick horsehair plume, 19 1/4 inches high and about 8 inches wide. For privates this plume is completely black and the shako is without any other decoration besides the grenade, cockade, and small pompon. For noncommissioned officers the plumes have a white top with a yellow stripe in its middle and the shakos have gold galloon around the top edge of the crown; for company drummers and for fifers the plumes are red and the shakos are as for privates; for battalion and regimental drummers and for musicians the plumes are red with the tops and the shakos as for noncommissioned officers.

12 June 1805: For Fusilier battalions of Grenadier regiments, the previously described shakos are ordered not to have grenades."

Looks like the fusiliers are going to be the grenadier figures with a bit of filing.

From what I can tell you have the following situation with uniforms :

Early Grenadier Regiments pre – 1806

Grenadiers
Headgear – Mitre Cap (high/closed with pom pom)
Uniform – Green jacket, white pants
Shoes – High black boots
Back pack – old style, single strap

Fusiliers
Headgear – Short Mitre Cap (open – no pom pom)
Uniform – Green jacket, white pants
Shoes – High black boots
Back pack – old style, single strap

Grenadier Regiments 1805-07

Grenadiers
Headgear – Shako with thick bottle brush plume
Uniform – Green jacket, white pants
Shoes – High black boots
Back pack – old style, single strap

Fusiliers
Headgear – Shako with thick bottle brush plume ?
Uniform – Green jacket, white pants
Shoes – High black boots
Back pack – old style, single strap

Grenadier Regiments 1811-15

Grenadiers
Headgear – Shako with thin tall plume (Pavlov's stuck with Mitre cap)
Uniform – Green jacket, white pants with gaiters
Shoes – short boots
Back pack – new back pack with cross straps

Fusiliers
Headgear – Shako with thin tall plume (Pavlov's stuck with Mitre cap)
Uniform – Green jacket, white pants with gaiters
Shoes – short boots
Back pack – new back pack with cross straps

I think this is roughly how they were uniformed for the purposes of painting figures ?

Lasalle, keep digging on Mark Conrad's site,

link

Here is a report from a Col of Dragoons asking for new helmets because the hats he got issued (Summer 1804 which was after the date when the new style helmets should have been issued) have worn out due to poor manufacturing. There is a mention of an official "wear-out period" for the hats because the wear-out period of the new helmets is to be increased by a year to cover their early issue. It is a decent guess that just because a date is given, it is what they want to happen, rather than what they actually get. Items in store would be issued, worn items would be replaced in due course, it is the same the world over and I suspect through all time as well.

John Cooke suggests shakos for Musketeer Regts in 1805, but won't commit for the Grenadiers, so if you want Grenadiers and Fusiliers in their respective mitres then I doubt anyone would argue. Same situation with Austrian german regts wearing helmets in 1809 rather than shako, or British units wearing stovepipes after the issue of Belgic or French Chasseurs a Cheval wearing the braided dolman. You could go on for ever with exceptions ;-)

IIRC the Pavlovs got to keep theirs because of bravery at Eylau in 1807, so one at least was wearing mitres 2 years after the order to replace them with shako was issued but only got permission to keep them afterwards.

For what it's worth, I also think that the Fusiliers didn't have the grenade badges on each corner of the cartridge box flap as the Grenadiers did.

Anthony Barton AB Figures fusiliers in greatcoat it is then! Marvellous.

No doubts that the grenadier battalions consisted of 4 companies only of grenadiers and the fusilier battalions also had 4 companies only of fusiliers in 1805-07 . That's what all Russian military books claim. Just want to add that Viskovatov in his huge work about uniform of Russian army pointed official dates of the decrees about uniform changes but not what actually was on the soldiers heads on that dates.

The decree to change mitres for grenadiers and fusiliers to new shako was issued in the beginning of 1805 but commissariat system especially during combat activity was insufficient and since each regiment supposed to produce new shako on their own cost soldiers probably encouraged to use old mitres until they reach worn out time. That's why, according tî russian researches, famous Pavlovski grenadier regiment continued to use mitres in their grenadier and fusilier battalions in 1807 and reward to keep them was made only after friendland campain. Although it is known that grenadiers of Apsheron musketeer regiment fought in new shakos against the French in 1805 – according to the diary of the officer of Apsheron regiment. Researchers also found în Àusterlitz battlefield grenadier mitres of Old Ingermanland and Narva musketeer regiments. In New Ingermanland musketeer regimental history the order to change the color on the grenadiers mitres back because of the Inspaction change was ordered in November 1805 or several days before Austerlitz contrary to decree to replace them for shako. According to history re-enactors and uniform specialists Moscow grenadier regiment was equipped in mitres at Eylau. Grenadiers of Vladimerski musketeer regiment, also used mitres at Eylau, maybe because they did not suffer greatly in 1805. For example Azov regiment who suffered terribly in 1805 started for Poland campaign completely replenished and equipped. Guard regiments adopted shakos with plume and fought in new headgear at Austerlitz.

In conclusion :) be careful with Viskovatov regimental color chart for Russian 1805-1807 army if you want precise. Several Russian articles and books on this subject confirmed that his chart has lots of mistakes especially about shoulder straps of the regiments.

Anton,

Wow, you have brilliantly explained what many of us suspected for years, thank you very much. It is a great help to finally find out which units actually kept their mitre caps and until when. I am actually stunned to learn that Grenadier btlns of the Musketeer regiments actually held on to them also.

Regards,
Shane