"Just how accurate are ACW reinactors? " Topic

HI all, just getting into ACW and was wondering just how close to 'reality' reinactors get. Uniform research is the only from of historical research I find tedious.

Probably being nieve here, but would the movie Gettysburg be a good source of uniform info. I would be simplicity itelf to pause the DvD and copy from it! I'm doing 28mm so it has to be correct or I wont be happy…so I expect it may well be 'back to the books' for me. Thought it worth asking though.

If not for the units, what about the major Generals. Are they, at least, right?

One other matter. Looking at colonel Darlins coat it looks purple to me? Am I going colour blind or was the 'blue' used by the Union very purple looking?

Many thanks for any help!

Hello:

Renactors can be very good or very bad. It's hard to tell the difference until you know enough not to need the pictures anyway…

Warning: Plug Follows!

May I recommend two outstanding books? They are uniform guides with extensive, well researched illustrations and at $22.95 USD are the best value going:

link

They detail not only the basic clothes but equipment, weapons, drums, flag staffs, etc.

I just wish I could keep them in stock…

Mark Severin
Owner, Scale Creep Miniatures
scalecreep.com

I used to be a member of the Brigade of the American Revolution. These guys spend a LOT of time trying to get it right. Like you, if it isn't right, they aren't happy. The nice thing about the ACW is that they have a lot more surviving examples to work from. Movies like Gettysburg use reenactors to fill in the ranks because they already have the uniforms and equipment, and the studios don't have to put out the expense of providing it. I would bet, though, that while the rank and file has it right, the officers might not as they are paid actors with wardrobe provided by the studios – not the reenactors. I know that was one of the major criticisms of period movies by members of the BAR. Make no mistake, though – sometimes they screw up too. But if they do, it's an honest mistake – not deliberate negligence: differing interpretations of a description, for example.

As far as the purple goes, I believe the blue and purple were made from different types of dyes so there was no way the blue would look purple (ie, the purple was a purple dye, not a red dye and a blue dye mixed together). The blue was a deep, dark blue – like indigo (not sure if that's what was used, though). I could be wrong as it's been a while since I read up on any of that. I'm sure someone here will be able to give you more insight into that question.

Depends entirely on the reinactors. Some spend time replicating the exact wool/cotton blend in a shirt, others wear dyed blue jeans. A good group is worth its weight in gold. A bad one can still be fun to watch.

As a category, "re-enactors" are not a dependable source. However, as said above, when you know you have good ones, spend some time exploring their information.
There is always the tendancy among some to take a specific (photo/art print) and make it a generalization. Many photo props belonged to the photographer and maybe the straw hat salesman just visited that unit before the photographer. On the other hand, there are those who do as aercdr says, get the right fabric, etc.
Vegetable dyes, especially exposed to sunlight, are very inconsistent. It may have started as blue but looks kind of purple-ish by the end.

Not very accurate at all: they all seem to survive every battle.

Thanks for the prompt feedback guys. So I guess the question is: how good were the guys who appeared in the film?

Or is the point being made: even within the movie some 'units' the camera pans across have the right idea, and others not!

Partially, it only occured to me because it struck me that to bother being a reinactor you would have to be passionate about the era and the whole point of the thing is to get it as authentic as posible?

No worries re the plug Mark, I may look you up on that one at some point. Right now I'm pretty short (so the Mrs informs me!), so it may be a while till I can grab em. As it is I am currently trying to swap some models on the 'exchnge boards' to get some figures to get started. Time for my own shameless plug – looking to swap Flames of War blisters for unpainted ACW, Perry/Sash and Sabre/Mark Fenlon/ and possibly Foundry 28s!

Should be fun era. I'm thinking about the 2 fat lardies new set of rules. They sound fun..

Union blue (indigo dye generally speaking) if anything has a greenish cast to it, especially the sky blue trousers. Although the depth of the blue can vary widely, indigo dye does not turn or appear purplish.

As far as re-enactors go, the purplish uniforms are generally colored using an inexpensive synthetic blue dye, which often turns purplish with age.

How many times have you seen a threadbare re-enactors uniform, or one full of patches?

Real troops looked a lot scruffier than most re-enactors show
Re-enactors tend to be older and have more of a beer belly than most troops of the period.

Thinking about it they do look a lot like wargame figures…..

There are many groups that do it right. One example is the Southern Guard. They sleep on the ground with only a blanket regardless of the weather (hot, cold, rain, snow… whatever). They eat what ever their scenario dictates for the time and place. They read the drill manuals and even carry/wear what is 100% accurate to the best of the knowledge available. Other groups try to come this close. Many groups don't even come anywhere near this so you must have some knowledge to tell them apart.

Lots of the reenactors in movies are not very good. It all depends upon the movie. Some of these production companies don't care as long as you are 'close enough'. It's cheap for them to 'hire' lousy reenactors because they will quit their jobs for a slight chance to get before the camera.

The film Gettysburg had a few real good reenactors hired full time. They had to provide all their own stuff. There were about 25 of these. They portrayed both sides depending upon the scene being shot. Their pay was minimum wage and were provided only two meals per day and slept in their own tents. After the first few weeks they revolted and were provided a hotel room.

The take home message… it's hard just looking at any reenactor to know if they are good enough unless you know something. Here's a good test… ask to look inside their Haversacks and knapsacks. Ask them to dump their stuff out so you can see what kind of things they have. Do it randomly. Don't ask the 'spokes person' of the group. You will tell a lot about a group by doing this. If you see: cell phones, wrist watches, directions to the event, plastic bags of food, Granola bars, Tylenol containers, bags of Oatmeal, cookies, paper towels, Dial soap, cigarettes, Crest tooth paste, plastic tooth brush, chewing gum, varieties of apples that were never around at the time etc etc you know what the group is about. If you see salt pork and hardtack, coffee beans, letters from home written in ink or a lead pencil, home made soap, etc etc that tells you something. A good group will inform their members about the proper things to carry, wear and HOW TO wear stuff.

Thinking about it, I have to agree with the other comments. Those reenactors I knew worked hard to get it right – but they did generalize, mostly because evidence is limited. They were, however, always on the lookout for additional evidence, either in support of in conflict with their notions. Any evidence always begs supporting evidence. Some groups however… <shudder> I stopped volunteering at one museum because when school groups came through they wanted staff to just throw on whatever and didn't care if it was accurate or not – just wanted a good show for the kids.

There are lots of books/websites out there with good info in them. Go with those. You should be able to find lots of good ACW uniform books on-line.

Hi…As a reenactor, I can tell you that if you want to get a good "general impression", Gettysburg is the way to go. If you want to get a better look take a look at the films made by Wide Awake Films. Their reenactors are more authentic.

Depending upon where you are, how old you are, how much money and time you have, how "true" you want to be to the "hobby" determines your realism.
20 years ago I did the "hardcore stuff". Sleeping on the ground, with a groundsheet and blanket, etc…
This past Gettysburg I did the sleeping on the ground thing, but had a dog tent, (which kept the rain and bugs off of me).
Plus a lot of us are just "older" now, and can no longer do the "younger, harder, leaner" stuff anymore.

Reenactors fall primarily into 4 groups:
1: Campaigners/Hardcores/Stitch Nazis- These are the small groups of reenactors that "completely immerse" themselves into the "experience". Shirts have accurate period thread count, method of speaking, etc.

2: Mainstream: The most common form of reenactor. Mainstreamers are usually family oriented units where although "accuracy and detail" is important, at night when the crowd goes away, you will see one of them smoking a Marlboro, checking the cell phone, (we've a couple of Doctors with us that have to do that), going into the A frame and getting a drink from the cooler, etc…

3: FARBS: Farbs are the ones that wear Polyester uniforms, (yes, there's a vido on Youtube with a guy admitting it), modern period eyewear simply because he's too lazy to take 100 bucks of his cigarette money and get a reproduction set of spectacles, younger guys wearing earrings and girls wearing nose and lip piercings at events. And they like feathers. It's almost pseudo-ren-fairish, with black powder.

4: Progressives: Progressives are those people that have started in one field, usually Farb, or lower Mainstream and are slowly working their way "up" in accuracy and presentation.

All in all it depends on money that can be spent. Do you spend 175 bucks and buy a your leathers, or do you simply spend that for an "authentic" shirt?

If you are interested in wanting to know more, shoot me an email at m_murphy_1963 AT yahoo dot com I'll be glad to answer any questions you want to ask.

Not a reenactor, never been one, never will be one, but I like to visit with them – Murphy has a very accurate summation, from the hard cores to the "Sears and Roebuck Company" (which a friend used to describe Union reenactors who wore light blue jeans instead of spending all that money on period trousers)

One thing that my reenactor friends tell me – it is well near impossible to be as skinny as the Rebs actually were

About 20 to 100lbs inaccurate.

Get the movie "Sweet Liberty", with Alan Alda. It's about a history professor who writes a monograph on Cowpens, and to his surprise, Hollywood buys it to make a movie. One of the subplots is about how Hollywood "ruins" history to make a good story, and how the hired reenactors fight them tooth and nail.
The irony is, I was talking with a group of renactors (De Lancey's) shortly after it came out, and they were enraged about the liberties the movie "renactors" took.

Anyway, it's a fun movie. Michale Caine plays the actor who plays Tarleton, and had a good time.

As a former reenactor with a semi-hardcore unit (they liked to march 10-30 miles to a reenactment to get a good patina)I second Murphy's perceptive analysis. I also second the OFM's recommendation of "Sweet Liberty" despite not being an Alda fan.

Facinating! I had no idea it was so in-depth (though I should have guessed). Really interesting info lads, many thanks.

Truth be told I will almost certainly end up going to the books. I like to have colour plates all over the room before I start. I'm not too worried about the Union stuff but the Confederates could be a little more of a challenge. All part of the experence though. Starting a new wargaming era is one of the most absorbing part of the hobby for me. Everythings new and fresh.

"but the Confederates could be a little more of a challenge. All part of the experence though. Starting a new wargaming era is one of the most absorbing part of the hobby for me."

Yes! You are right on there. I think the biggest problems occur (on the Reb side) are:

1. shells in the various forms (types 1-3)
2. hats and caps
3. color of shells and trousers

If you do some research on these items and nail them (as best as you can) you will be 95% there.

A couple of observations:

1) Mark, I have both those books and while good eye candy, they are riddled with mistakes. osprey is a far better source.

2) I am a re-enactor and can assure you that the comments above are accurate. :) As for our uniforms being accurate…well we do the best we can. My unit does US and CS Marines. The US uniform is spot on, the CS is mostly guess work!

3) I would not use Gettysburg as a source for uniforms. By definition the movie company hires people who look as close as possible to the troops at the time. This means they want young, skinny, kids. Since there is no single unit made up of nothing but people that look right, the units end up being made up of individuals with various uniforms.* While not bad for the US, for the CS it gives a look that is far more individualistic than was the case.

4) No, I have no idea why they put the fat 'santa' confederate picket in the movie. :)

5) To get a better idea what the CS troops would have looked like I would higly recommend finding a couple of Don Troiani's books. They can be had rather cheap if you go to Amazon or belong to the Military Book Club. they'll give you a good idea what a unit looked like.

* The exception to this is when the movie people are looking for units that portray a specific unit. My unit was chosen for Gods and Generals to be in the Bull Run scenes, since we do US Marines, as was the 14th Brooklyn.

Just out of curiosity – are american re-enactors stricter on gender ?

From UK re-enactors I have discovered that in the British Civil Wars cavalry units were mostly female….. :-)

(I believe it's something to do with being vaguely interested in the period and having a horse – and horse riding is more popular with women)

I can't speak for everyone over in the US but… females in the ranks is very frowned upon with all the groups I have spoken to. I also belive it is NOT allowed in the National Regiment. Sure their are historical facts but these real women posing as men _looked_ and _acted_ like men. Many were only discovered after they were wounded. If you see a female reenactor and know that it's a 'she' then she shouldn't be allowed. If she could hide her sex and no one knew then that 'might' be okay… might be.

It's a rather odd facet of the hobby over here – post 1670ish tends to be all male (the historic norm for fighting units) but before this (with the exception of re-enactors of Roman legions !) tends to have a fairly liberal approach to the acceptability of women in the ranks.

Never been sure why (if it's ok to have women pikemen why not women WWII Para's ?), it's just the way it is. Do sometimes wonder if it gives the wrong message to younger members of the audiences though.

I've only been reenacting since 1982 so I guess I'm not an expert except on my own unit. We allow women on the field because no Tiger Rifle would be at home without his favorite Viv close by to care for his wounds. As far confederate uniforms go, try looking at the various sutler sites that cater to confederate reenactors. Many of them show uniforms by state and distribution points. Most of them have color photos to show colors also. In defense of my fellow reenactors, most make an excellent representation of the period.

"We allow women on the field because no Tiger Rifle would be at home without his favorite Viv close by"

I think he was referring to women in the ranks pretending to be men… or not pretending well. :)

I was referring to an intrical part of all zouave units, the vivandierre. In most units they were care takers of the wounded. In Major Wheats Tigers they were more like fighting nurses, on the field with the men during the fighting. Check the history. Like I said I've only been reenacting for 26 years and my expertise is mostly with Tiger Rifle history. I thought anyone who was a reenactor or was close to reenacting in any way would know what a Viv was. To every one else, sorry for getting off track. 1st Sgt., 1st Special Battalion, Louisiana Volunteers, Wheats Tiger Rifles

tigrifsgt,

We know what vivandierres were. I think the question posed by J Aird dealt with women _"fighting"_ in the ranks pretending to be men.

Just curious as to the documentation of Vivandières with Wheat's. I know there are 2 early war examples that headed to Mobile with Coppens on their famed "train ride" from the OR's. Sorry to highjack the thread but this is a bit of a side project of mine. For Louisiana I know of..

Lavinia Williams and 2 unnamed Vivandières
Served with: 1st Louisiana Infantry, Co. B
Present at: First Bull Run, Cedar Mountain, Pensacola, Second Bull Run

Miss Riliseh
Served with: 1st Louisiana Infantry, Co. D
Present at: First Bull Run, Cedar Mountain, Pensacola, Second Bull Run

Leona Neville-Vivandière
Served with: 5th Louisiana Infantry

Rose Rooney-Daughter of the Regiment/Laundress
Served with: 15th Louisiana Infantry, Co. K
Present at: First Bull Run, Gettysburg, Appomattox

Mistress "John Bahr"-Officer's Wife
Served with: Washington Artillery of New Orleans

Betty Sullivan-Daughter of the Regiment
Served with: Unknown Louisiana Regiment

The idea that all Zouave units had Vivandières is more of a reenactorism but it is clear they did accompany a good number of units.

Sean

Sorry…hit submit too soon. The first one is the early war viv I was referring to. Was wondering if there were additional examples.

It seems that you did your research pretty well. I'll have to look back through my notes. There was a story about four Tiger Rifle Vivs in a wagon leaving one of the early war battles. Which one I'm not sure of at this point. And being a good Tiger we refer to those two battles as the 1st and 2nd Manassas.

I'm a primary source junkie. Any more facts to add to the filing cabinet in my brain are always welcome. Civil War medical is a huge area of interest for me, hence the research on Vivandières. My apologies on the Bull Run reference, I don't know where my head was :)Ill chalk it up to the 2 neat Jamesons at a sales lunch I was at yesterday before the post.

Sean

I think EVERY ACW zouave unit portrayed HAS to have a vivandiere! Ugh!

A lot of reenactors don't let facts get in the way of their impressions! LOL!

Bob
Former member, Columbia Rifles

My favorite Viv has been with me for over 26 years. She is the mother of my favorite Corporal. And if a member of the unit has a wife, daughter, or sweetheart who wants to be a Viv we don't limit the amount of Vivs we have because documentation of history says that Wheat had at the most four at one time. We only allow four on the field at one time. Most would rather stay in camp or watch any way. As a side note I went to the Columbia Rifles web site and started reading. It seems like these are the type of guys who are so busy being "SUPER AUTHENIC" they take the fun out of doing this.

As a side note I went to the Columbia Rifles web site and started reading. It seems like these are the type of guys who are so busy being "SUPER AUTHENIC" they take the fun out of doing this.
>>
Nope,nothing but fun as a matter of fact.Doing history as authentic as possible.
You make it sound like SUPER authentic is a bad thing??

Bob C.

No, but in some places it gets to the point where it's just plain rediculous. I went to an event in uniform about two years ago and because of a recent surgery I was walking with a cane. I was stopped and asked to see the bottom of my cane to see if it had a rubber tip on it. The inside of my canteen was inspected to see if it was lined with bees wax and not some man made material. If they would have asked me to pull down pants, it would have shown a surgical sock. They probably would have hung me at that point. And to top it off all other Tiger units have given in and went to three banders, we still carry our as issue Mississippi Rifles, along with pistol, and bowie knife. This causes us more problems than you would belive. There are many units who will not brigade with us because of that. Two banders are not a safety hazard any more than dismounted cavalry who carry carbines. This rant was not directed at you It was just something that I needed to get off my chest.

And to top it off all other Tiger units have given in and went to three banders, we still carry our as issue Mississippi Rifles, along with pistol, and bowie knife. This causes us more problems than you would belive. There are many units who will not brigade with us because of that. Two banders are not a safety hazard any more than dismounted cavalry who carry carbines. This rant was not directed at you It was just something that I needed to get off my chest.
>>
But dismounted cav is just as ridiculous and farby!

I don't go inspecting what people wear or use,because I hang with like people,and thats not necessary,everyone is assumed to have it "right".Some of us put a LOT of time and money into our impressions,that is what's fun for us,getting it as right as possible.I don't knock you for doing what you do,thats your right,and if you like doing that,more power to you!
I also know a bit about the Tiger Rifles,and I have seen some very BAD impressions of what they were "supposed" to be like,and what they "supposedly" wore.
A lot of wargamers paint whole units of them,when in reality,they were only a COMPANY sized element part of a larger battalion,and everyone in that Bn. did NOT wear the same BLUE zouave uniform the Tigers wore.

Bob

Bob, looks like we are in the same area. Are you still active with the CR? If not are you looking to get out there again?

Sean

Bob, looks like we are in the same area. Are you still active with the CR? If not are you looking to get out there again?
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I'm not active actually.Haven't been in almost 2 years.I am looking to do stuff here and there.I kinda miss it!

Bob

Shoot me an email muzik212@yahoo.com Ill send you our schedule. We are traveling for most of our battle events this year, Bummers 09 and Into the Piney Woods are our big ones. But, we have some local living histories in blue and a few 'carpe eventums' in the Jersey/ NY area

Sean

Like you said Bob you know a bit. Leave policing Tigers to those who know a lot.

95th I have been fighting that 2 band problem for years. Even as a COS of two major east coast Confederate orginazations I supported those units who carry two banders. Our Sharpshooter company of the revised Mahones brigade are wanting to carry two banders as was done. But we have had to settle with the three bander. I am the onlyone (as company officer) who carries a two bander that I built off of an orginial Cook and Bro sharpshooter rifle. It is a shame that we can not fall in line with 2bndrs

Va. soldier that two bander comment came originally from me. We can carry our two band Mississippis at most events in the midwest as long as the entire unit is two banders or we go as front rank only. It gets a lot more rigid as we go east. Also, as we get closer to the coast, they frown on the knives and pistols. But we will carry our 1861 as issued equipment as long as we can. And, when you finish your book on southern zouaves, sign me up for a first run autographed copy. The pistol and knife weren't issued but many of the Tigers carried them. Burnsides men at the stone bridge were on the wrong end those weapons.

Like you said Bob you know a bit. Leave policing Tigers to those who know a lot.
>>
Alrighty then! YOU are THE expert! Enjoy those events with the dismounts and naval landing parties! ;-)

Bob C.
Needs a good immersion event!!

Bob, I've never seen a naval landing party, so what does your unit use, LST's. And farby dismounts, like Buford at Gettysburg.

I've never seen a naval landing party, so what does your unit use, LST's. And farby dismounts, like Buford at Gettysburg.
>>>
Those cheesy Naval landing parties at seemingly every CW event,even Gettysburg! And yeah,those dismounted cav,who have NO horses,yellow trim everywhere,and every conceiveable pistol known to man.Festooned in feathers and long hair down to their butts!
THOSE dismounts.Not the authentic ones,who dismount from their REAL horses,and have a horseholder for every 3 horses.

And my unit,we park far from where our site is,and carry everything we need for the weekend in our packs or bedrolls.
We leave the coolers,and the Wives,at home.
Thats just how me and my friends enjoy our interpretation of history,others versions may vary!

Bob C.

Bob, I think we all need to take a lesson from the guys who do the 1840's impessions. It's a family affair where wives and children are welcome. That's the way this hobby started so many years ago as a family affair, not as a chance to get away from the family for a weekend.

Are there dismounted reenactor units that portray dismounted units from the likes of Deshler/Granbury's brigade, or Ector's brigade? Where the regiments were dismounted from lack of horses and served as infantry from there on out?

I can see casting a averse eye toward a unit portraying a mounted unit without real horses, especially with incorrect uniforms.

There was one a time ago which was the 34th Va Cav dismounted. They had a great impression using three banders and equipment like the infantry. As with most no boots just brogans (which being more popular for mounted than boots)they did a great job.

Most of the dismounted groups out there are a bunch of YA-HOOS out to blow powder and see how many pistols one man can carry before the weight of them keeps him from walking. And talk about no disipline. Most look like they came from a neon sign factory with all the yellow being worn. I suppose they never once looked at a QM report. But then why let authenticity get in the way of blowing off powder.

VS

The tigers are really not going to be the subject of my writings on zouaves. With all due respect there where only two units in the civil war that the dress adhered to the strict sense of the Zouave. The 5th NY and the 1st Confederate States Zouaves CSA Regulars. The rest both union and confederate (exception the 2nd battalion CS Zouaves) zouaves had abriviated uniforms. The problem with the tiger and to that matter the rest of Wheats men was that they where very unruly. Coppens was asked to take the tigers after Bull Run but he flat refused to and his men also frowned upon the Tigers and considered them as riff raff. Now this coming from a unit that caused such trouble going to richmond. But then later became the Confederate Presidents Bodyguard and residence guard. GO FIGURE!

Peter

Va. Soldier it's called zouave attitude. There is even a web site that sells zouave attitude t-shirts. My men, I'm second in command, are usually prety tame. But, there was a time when a group of union soldiers surrounded my son when he was walking through camp one morning. They decided it would be fun to ridicule the young zouave and his girlfriend(a viv) about being out in their pajamas. It almost came to blows after someone came to our camp to tell us about it. Cooler heads prevailed and nothing came of it. But at that point the Sgt. Major started a tradition within our unit which still holds today. No one ever leaves camp alone. Travel in packs like wolves he said. And when leaving camp always wear your side arm and your knife. That was eight years ago. We have no officers because no one is willing to give up the enlisted uniform. So if you are at a reenactment and you see a group of Tigers walking about all armed, that we be us. I am the 1st Sgt.

Good to know. I commanded the 1st Battalion here on the east coast before a bunch got in and broke it up. At the 135 of Manasas I commanded the a whole battalion of zouaves. Not a pretty site but then at 6'6" and 260 I was able to keep a rein on them. I loved my zoo zoo's