"Questionable billing practices by FOUNDRY" Topic

If you happen to live on the continent (Belgium in my case), you are not allowed by FOUNDRY to be billed in Pounds but have to pay Euro's. No problem one should think, but…. They have a rate that is 33% higher than the official currency-rates!!! My order (wich I did not validate) of 109.72 £ came to 175.92 Euro instead of 116.91 Euro.
What should one name such a practice I wonder ?

Sharp practise I would say.

Email them and ask, see what they say.

can you pay by paypal with them?

In which case maybe you can pay by Euro through them.

There was another discussion about this a few weeks back, with some interesting information in it. Unfortunately the search function on TMP is mostly useless and I can not seem to find it now.

Monkey was it this thread TMP link

What should one name such a practice I wonder ?

"Blatant rip-off" will do fine for me.

There are a few European webstores that sell Foundry packs for prices that are a tad closer to Foundry's UK prices. Just a tad, though. These are the two that I know of:

link
miniaturicum.de

Sounds like a rip-off!

Maybe it was this thread:

TMP link

This price issue so much higher for the continental europeans is why I do not order from Foundry.

That is not a "questionable billing practice". That is Foundry choosing to set prices based on the customer's location. If you complete an order, you accept those prices. Nobody is forcing you to buy them; it is your choice to do so or not.

That is not a "questionable billing practice". That is Foundry choosing to set prices based on the customer's location. If you complete an order, you accept those prices. Nobody is forcing you to buy them; it is your choice to do so or not

Good point I guess. Seems rather unfair though. What if they charge aecurtis 33% more than everyone else. Nobody is forcing you to buy them but it still seems unfair.

I'm bored that Foundry continue the dodgy practice of inbuilt 'postage' for non UK customers. Effectively there is NO FREE postage for International customers if you buy 90 quids worth of figures, no free postage on books, no free postage on paints because its already much higher to buy from them anyway. It also makes their current 20% off a joke unless you reside in the UK. Why should International gamers sponser UK sales.

To give an example, a 250 quid army deal is 300 quid for a gamer here in Australia. As I said free postage my ass!

Seems that Foundry are not interested on overseas costumers.

yup, i bought from them when the prices were the same for me as the people in the uk, when they decided i had to pay ~50% more for not being in the UK, i stopped buying foundry..

"What if they charge aecurtis 33% more than everyone else."

But they're not. US customers are paying a rate that Foundry has set in US dollars for US customers. You and I would pay the same rate. If one of us buys enough, he would get "free shipping"--which is indeed subsidized by the set rates.

It's not unfair. It is not a rip-off. You have the absolute free choice to purchase at the established prices or not, the same as any other international customer.

And you know: without coming out with many new releases in the last ten years or so, and with all the complaints about "unfair" prices, it sure looks like Foundry's doing OK. Somebody's buying…

Just doesn't seem right that each country should be charged a different amount. Just have one price for every country and let it be settled by the exchange rate and charge the shipping it costs you plus a small ship and handling charge. This would stop all the complaining we hear on a monthly basis. Don't you think? We don't have these issues with other miniatures' companies do we???

I have exercised my choice not to partake in Foundry's recent sale because I believe it is unfair that Foundry charges its UK customers 30-40% less than everyone else for the same product.

"This would stop all the complaining we hear on a monthly basis."

I think these threads would be useful for unaware non-uk buyers who may be mislead by UK prices and then could miss the upgraded price once he has to pay.

"This would stop all the complaining we hear on a monthly basis."

Probably not.

And another thing: by setting prices by customer location, the seller avoids the issue of whether he should deduct VAT. He basically gets to charge it as if it were VAT-inclusive; there's no requirement to report it or pay it to the goverment; so it's more profit.

That's good business sense, from the company point of view. Nothing illegal, immoral, or unethical about it. It's only "unfair" in the eyes of the potential customer who doesn't want to pay what Foundry wants to charge.

And despite those who choose not to buy, Foundry still seems to be doing OK. So where's the problem?

Another company may set prices in one currency, adjust (more or less accurately) for currency fluctuation, and deduct VAT for orders outside the EU. Some customers may perceive that as greater value. That's a business strategy; it's no more and no less "fair".

Yet another company may choose not to do business at all with customers in certain regions; for example, if they have experienced higher rates of losses in postal shipments there, or fraudulent credit card use, or other factors. That's a business decision. "Fair" doesn't come into it.

"I think these threads would be useful for unaware non-uk buyers who may be mislead by UK prices and then could miss the upgraded price once he has to pay."

How utterly clueless does a customer have to be to identify his location (as the Foundry Web site requires) and then fail to notice the prices of selected items as they are added to the shopping cart?

"How utterly clueless does a customer have to be to identify his location (as the Foundry Web site requires) and then fail to notice the prices of selected items as they are added to the shopping cart?"

One that is used to other websites where the change is done by the bank. Edit: There can also be people that enters as european and think their paying the same without knowing the difference. You never know and keeping people informed is good.

BTW, I identified once on another computer on foundry as UK as sometimes the webpages are different and wanted to check and I wasn't able to change it later.

aecurtis, your packs… I mean, the check is on the mail.

I do not understand very well the issue with VAT. I understood that buying products from UK companies did not incur on increased VAT costs, they would be the same as any UK user.

BTW, I identified once on another computer on foundry as UK as sometimes the webpages are different and wanted to check and I wasn't able to change it later.

Just remove the cookie for their domain, and you will be able to reset it on your next access. You can do that on your browser.

Griefbringer

"Foundry charges its UK customers 30-40% less than everyone else for the same product"

Well it does make a pleasant change as in the UK we usually end up paying more than everyone else for the same thing just look at the GW comparison between UK-US over the years £50.00 GBP here $50 USD in the US.

Not that I'm defending what they are doing just saying it makes a change.

Thanks for the tip Griefbringer.

"just look at the GW comparison between UK-US over the years £50.00 GBP GBP here $50.00 USD USD in the US."

Something else I didn't knew, but this is strange ASFAIK GW is a UK company, could this be because VAT would not apply to USA?.

Edit: Just for the record, I've just checked UK and Spain GW sites and Spanish prices are again much higher. But TBH, with GW I do not know yet if it's allowed to buy from the UK web as I only buy few GW figures on brick and mortar shops.

The host of the Von Carsteins: 225,10 GBP vs. 355,00 EUR

100% agree with combatpainter, very well put.

could this be because VAT would not apply to USA?

AFAIK in the US, there is no federal VAT, so the prices you see listed are without VAT.

There might be a state (or even county) specific VAT thrown on top of that, depending on where you happen to shop.

Griefbringer

FreddBloggs : In didn't e-mail them, I phoned them and they said that it was their policy as it stands. I told them I was ok with paying in £ and the reply was : as long as you have a delivery adress in the UK. This means to my mind :

1 – I'm not allowed to pay a UK based company in UK currency
2 – I'm discriminated for not living in the UK

I can not find ANY company (whatever they are trading in) who uses these practises. Those who think this is "normal bussiness" can maybe direct me to another company using these methods …. I'm waiting ….

"Just remove the cookie for their domain, and you will be able to reset it on your next access. You can do that on your browser."

Or go to the "help" selection in the top menu, and do what it says under "Prices". You can toggle between four locations, so that you can take variable umbrage at getting screwed over.

And yes, obviously, the US prices are set without VAT. That's the beauty of setting prices by location: it could be exactly equivalent to the UK price, and still generate a 17.5% profit (or whatever the reduced rate is now). Did Foundry's VAT-inclusive prices for UK customers go down to reflect that rate drop?

Well, if "unfair" and "rip-off" are vulnerable to semantics, then I might content myself with saying "disrespectful". Foundry, IMO, is blatantly disrespectful to it's customer base by pulling tricks like this. Sure, a business doesn't "have" to respect it's customers, and when I order from Foundry I'm accepting their terms no matter how bad they may be. But no one said I'm not allowed to complain about it, or voice my wishes that Foundry stop using seemingly arbitrary exchange rates that are clearly intended to squeeze a few extra Euros out of me.

But coming to think of it, why am I defending myself? I WON'T content myself with saying "disrespectful". It's still a blatant rip-off to me. Even if I am accepting their terms.

Anyway, I just want to remind my fellow Europeans again that instead of ordering straight from Foundry, they might be able to ameliorate the price situation somewhat by ordering from Battlefield Berlin or Miniaturicum (or possibly other webstores that I don't know about). I can't answer for the shipping costs, though. For what it's worth, you might get some synergy effects by ordering other stuff from them at the same time.

You just don't understand; you're coming at this from entirely the wrong point of view. Foundry respects their customers: the ones who are willing to pay what Foundry requires.

For those that don't: sure, they have no respect all for them. What's more, they're not going to be influenced in the slightest by complaining. Never have; never will.

Canadians get screwed, too. A $12 USD book in the U.S. might cost $20 USD in Canada, despite the minute difference in exchange rates.

Foundry respects their customers: the ones who are willing to pay what Foundry requires.

How do you figure that? They seem quite cynical to me.

You buy their figures, they pack them up and send them, and include a cheerful "thank you" note.

Then they send you e-mails to give you advance warning of their frequent sales, which reduce the artificially-inflated prices to make you think you're getting a good deal.

I can not find ANY company (whatever they are trading in) who uses these practises. Those who think this is "normal bussiness" can maybe direct me to another company using these methods …. I'm waiting ….

You have evidently never bought computer software, where regional shops and unique prices for each market are commonplace. Try the Symantec shop for one (GBP39.99 for Norton AV in the UK; USD39.99 in the US).

If you really want a product it doesn't matter what pricing policy a company adopts: you'll buy it. If you don't buy it then you don't really want it enough – and Foundry is being good by saving you from yourself. :-)

BTW, if you really want to fault Foundry on a matter of trading practices, it is trading illegally as an ecommerce venture under UK and EU law by failing to state that prices include VAT, by failing to state its VAT number, and, if by some miracle its turnover is low enough not to require VAT registration and the first two are not valid points, by failing to state its terms and conditions on its website. Or if it has fulfilled those criteria, it has managed to hide the details where almost no one can find them.

FreddBloggs : In didn't e-mail them, I phoned them and they said that it was their policy as it stands. I told them I was ok with paying in £ and the reply was : as long as you have a delivery adress in the UK. This means to my mind :

1 – I'm not allowed to pay a UK based company in UK currency
2 – I'm discriminated for not living in the UK

I can not find ANY company (whatever they are trading in) who uses these practises. Those who think this is "normal bussiness" can maybe direct me to another company using these methods …. I'm waiting ….

The VAT laws mean that unless they are registered for overseas sales, they cannot deduct the VAT element from what they charge you… The consequences for book keeping are that they need two accounts or they want to go through distributors to easily identify it. So, extra international postage on weighty items (its lead remember!) And you think that you should get the same deal as a guy who is local postage.

I will not be buying anything from the US because of the total 114% surcharges I had to pay for import. I must be discriminated for not living in the US. thats even worse when I am paying both state and UK taxes, even taxes on the state tax….

BelgianRay do as i do buy Foundry once a year at Crisis in Antwerp from resellers at usualy 30% off in UK £0.00 GBP

For the rest there are other companies that sell equivalent if not better sculpted figures (especialy their new sculpts unless you like elvish SYW figures).

Foundry is always critised for their business practices, over priced, bad customer service, and even bad sculpting for their new ranges/mini's.

Given the Exchange rate between Pound and Euro it is much better to buy with other companies

A little off-topic, as it has nothing to do with Foundry, still -- some information that might be useful for (continental) Europeans who are ticked over UK prices, and might actually find it cheaper to import stuff across the atlantic than across the channel.

If I understand it right, this also applies for UK people importing stuff from the US, even though they do not have the Euro as currency.

The EU passed a law in March '08, valid from December 2008 onwards, regulating import taxes.
Up till now, anything imported from outside of the EU with a value of over 22 Euros had to be taxed (by customs, if they would inspect it).
Now, the new limit is 150 Euros.

See here (PDF-law), for anyone in the EU importing anything from outside of the EU (such as the US of A):

link

Trapondur thank you thats good news

Useful information to know, thanks Trapondur.

Superb; thanks very much for bringing that up – I'd heard about the 150 Euro threshold, but gotten the impression it was only for import duty, not VAT. Makes one hell of a difference if it's the latter.

Dom, off to go and check the HMRC site….

Follow-up; I think you're wrong on that one; the amended limit specifically says "import duties" and VAT isn't an import duty, but rather a sales tax.

Update – just confirmed with HMRC – the VAT limit definitely remains £18.00 GBP / 22 Euros – the new 150 limit is *only* for import duties.

True, Dom. I'm sorry if I wasn't that clear. I did not mean VAT when I spoke of "import taxes" just the import "fees" or "duties". (Else it would be paradisiacal, and nothing in the EU-tradelaws ever is, I found out… :(
When I wrote of customs "taxing" imports, I meant putting their extra charge on it, apart from VAT.

But with goods of TARIC 9503008500 (Die-cast miniature models of metal) from the USA at least the 4.70% import duties no longer apply. At a maxed-out € 150.00 order from the USA that's € 7.05 one need not pay extra anymore, as opposed to a little over a month ago.
That's one or two miniatures extra you can buy for that money. :)

Doesn't make any difference in the UK to be honest – we've always had a waiver added that import duty of less than £7.00 GBP is ignored anyway – it's the VAT and handling charges that hurt.

Random PS for those who persist in thinking this is somehow exclusive to Foundry, has anyone used Itunes at all…?

99 cents US
99 Eurocents Continental
79 pence UK

These have been constant since its launch a good few years ago; the collapse of the pound means UK buyers are no longer getting the worst deal, although they were by far for several years. Oh, and all this on "goods" with no shipping costs at all, unlike Foundry…. (As an aside, there was big stink about this several years ago, and a ruling went against Itunes, but not actually on the grounds of price. Rather it was because blocking credit cards from different member states on the various countries' sites was a restriction of free trade within the EU. So you'd have a case against Foundry if that was what they were doing, but it isn't….)

Dom.

(Oh, and if you really need a wargames equivalent, try Battlefront or Games Workshop….)

The fact that other companies have unfair pricing practices isn't a reason not to complain about Foundry, and in any case the Foundry ripoff is a bigger percentage than the ITunes figures you quote.

Also I tend to first complain about those companies that I buy from rather than ones I don't (if you buy from iTunes and are not happy with them then I guess I would go to a music web site and complain there if I was you, but here it is appropriate to complain about miniatures pricing I think).

As far as GW are concerned, the community does already give them a hard time, much harder than Foundry from what I see, and in any case with GW there primary selling route is through there bricks and mortar shops not online and everyone accepts that shop rental, salaries etc. is different from country to country so probably would justify some sort of price differential, Foundry don't even have that excuse.

Personally I don't see anything in these examples that justifies what Foundry are doing or more importantly is a reason for the community to just shut up and smile at what Foundry do but thats my 2p's worth, guess each to his/her own, if you are paying 33% more and are happy with it then fair enough….

BravoX i totaly agree,

But is there a UK internet watchdog?

where one can complain about business practices?

thx

Congratulations on completely missing the point of my post. I wasn't complaining about Itunes, but posting a direct response to:

I can not find ANY company (whatever they are trading in) who uses these practises. Those who think this is "normal bussiness" can maybe direct me to another company using these methods …. I'm waiting ….

The simple fact is that any company can set its prices however it blooming well likes. If you don't like it, take your business elsewhere, and if enough people do the same, great, they'll have to take the hint. To pretend that this is some unique Foundry thing is , and to think you can complain to the authorities and they'll make it all better is also – you might not agree with it (personally I don't, and as a Brit am usually at the wrong end of it) but it's an entirely legal policy, and while it's unusual for a company of Foundry's size, it's also completely standard for larger firms, who'll generally have an rrp set in every country they sell to….

As far as GW are concerned, the community does already give them a hard time, much harder than Foundry from what I see, and in any case with GW there primary selling route is through there bricks and mortar shops not online and everyone accepts that shop rental, salaries etc. is different from country to country so probably would justify some sort of price differential, Foundry don't even have that excuse.

Nope; if only there was some other justification available. Like if they made heavy metal products that cost much more to ship overseas, or something like that. Again, for the record I've always preferred a single price for all and appropriate shipping rates, but they're entitled to price things how they like, and we're entitled to buy or not. (Personally speaking I used to be a very regular customer, and these days virtually never buy from them (24 figures last year), as other policies they've adopted have ed me off. If enough people ever agree with me, they'll have to change them. If not, well I'll manage without Foundry and they'll manage without me.)

I'm not for one minute saying that everyone has to "shut up and smile" but that the posters who (a) think this is some unique Foundry evil, and (b) think that it's some illegal sharp practice, are sadly deluded. No need to smile about it; just walk away and take your custom to another company – if everyone does that, they'll have to change. If you want Foundry's products enough to pay the premium they set, fair enough, if not, well also fair enough. Likewise, if they decide they want your custom enough to drop their prices, great, but if not, that's also fair enough….

Dom.

Absolutely true, Dom. Few like Foundry's 'policies', but they are all both legal and common. They are also the same policies as the majority of US suppliers when dealing with the EU.