AONeill,
I asked the same question some time ago in the 7yw yahoo discussion group.
I could provide you with some images of Prussian guns, as well as some tables that will give you the dimensions of Prussian ordnance. All books I know of are in German.
Below I will insert my posting (lengthy) with my thoughts on this topic.
Some more of my recent learnings in advance. The Austrian 51'' diameter for the wheels, seems to derive from diameter being fixed at 12 times the calibre of the 12 lb. All dimensions of a gun would, as a general rule, be based on the respective calibre. 12 calibres diameter wheels seem to have been the standard in cannon design, hence, was smaller with the 3 or 6 lbs etc. New for Austrian ordnance was the use of that 51'' for the lighter models as well. Not sure if this applied to the other armies. French followed suit in 1765. Seems to have been a winner. Prussians might have followed suit sometime during the progress of the war.
Another feature is the use of munition boxes on the carriage. Prussians had them by 1741, Austrians by 1756. With the Allied army (British/Hanover, and Hesse) they were introduced only in 1759. French had none – with the possible exception for the bataillon guns. Munitions boxes on the limber were introduced by Prussia in 1760 or 61 and likewise in Ferdinands army. No other armies had them.
Now comes my former post. It includes lots of dimensions for gun barrels
I'm currently investigating dimensions of guns employed by the various armies
during the 7YW. I'm intending to do some more artillery modelling for my 30 mm
armies. In particular, I'd like to add some more French pieces to my existing
parc. I should note that most of my ordnance is actually selfmade, except for
the existing, very fine Austrian and a couple of Prussian guns comercially
available around here in Germany. Foundry is mostly Dietz/Vienna (If you are
interested, I'll get you some images to look at during the weekend in the photo
section.) I did the carriages of balsa wood and cut aluminium & wire etc. for
the metal fittings. The wheels are re-casts, and also the barrels. From the
latter, I did a hand modelled master in order to modify the dimensions and then
did the casts in foundry sand.
I'm having difficulties finding the right dimensions for the French guns.
I did my French guns about 10 years ago and have lost my tables that I used to
scale down the various dimensions. I also can't recall the source I used, then.
Not sure anymore if it was a good one. I did 4, what I believe is an eight lb,
and 1 twelve lb gun. I need do to some 4 lbs for sure, but I'm unsure of the
historical dimensions of French guns of the 7YW period. For that reason I
started research all over again. Despite internet, information is rare. Does
anybody have pictures of historical French guns of the Vallière system of 1732?
Possibly some survivor rare original kept at some remote Canadian FIW museum
somewhere in Canadas endless forests? I have never come across one in our more
populated European provinces.
Maybe someone from among this forums gentlemen could confirm or correct my
findings below. It will be a bit lengthy, but I decided to spill it out for
sharing, hoping someone might want to join in and share his data, because mine
is a bit conflicting and leaving me rather confused.
Here is what I got: Mr. Vials and Evrards pages have been of good help for the
general direction (the French Nec Pluribus Impar and Praetiriti Fides pages),
but are missing dimensions – i.e. length by feet or cm. Pajol, besides being
less then brief, I don't trust. He specifies the 12 lb with around 2.000 lb
weight. This would have made French guns rather similar to other ordnance, but
all sources agree in saying that it was much heavier. I believe he refers to the
lighter and chambered ordnance of Bélidor, not the Vallière one.
The most detailed source I found in a contemporary French military dictionary
published 1758, and another one of 1754 edition with similar content at google
library (Link is:
link
758&as_brr=1#PPR4,M1)
It has it with it's entry "Canon" pp. 312 ff. It's giving the details for the
guns, currently employed ("Les pièces que l'on fond ordinairement, & qui sont
présentement en usage en France pour l'atrillerie de terre") As I understand it,
there were 2 systems in use by the 7YW, but it isn't that clear to me. There was
the dominating heavy Vallière range, and also what in entitled "cannons de la
nouvelle invention". By reading Picard's article, this should be the much
lighter and shorter barrelled range based on Bélidors studies and linking up to
earlier invented ordnance by Gonzalès and La Frézelière during the reign of
Louis XIV ( See link:
link ) These pieces
had an inreased sherical chamber section. I don't know whether they have been
much in use in Germany ?!?. Some indications say no. ?!?
Now comes the dictionnaire militaire content: (pp. 314 ff.) gives the dimensions
for the French pieces currently employed and what I believe describes the
Vallière range. It states the 12 lb spanish-type quarter cannon ("quart de canon
d'Espagne"), the 8 lb "Bâtarde", and the medium / "moyenne" 4 lb cannon all had
a barrel of 10 feet length from mouth to rear of chamber section (omitting the
cone tail section of the barrel – "mesuré depuis la bouche jusqu' à l'extremité
de la première plate-bande de la culasse) Weight is 3.400, 1.950, and 1.300 lb
respectively. The weight figures roughly agree with Picard's for Vallière system
and others given elsewhere. The 8 lb and 4 lb also come in a short version which
are 8 feet each. The heavy, 24, and 33 siege guns also with 10 feet length, and
a weight of 5.000 & 6.000 lb (the 16 lb missing with this table, but should also
be 10 feet – not so difficult to conclude). Note, the 4 lb is the battery
cannon, not the much lighter swedish-type battalion gun with a barrel of around
18 calibres.
If I understand the Picard article right, the ordinary Vallière cannons came
with a 24, 16, 12, 8, and 4 lb range. Length of barrel was around 22 calibres
for the 24 lb and progressing all up to 26 calibres for the 4 lb. Thus, the
increase of calibre would roughly compensate for the reduction in calibre – i.e.
the barrels should end up with round about egal length. Now – lets check this:
The 12 lb should have been around 24 calibres. Calculating with 12,4 cm being
it's calibre, the barrel would measure around 297 cm or 9+ or short to 10 ft
depending on foot scale. Weight is said to be around 3.400 lb for the barrel. So
far, so good. Now checking the 4 lb. I calculate with 8.4 cm calibre multiplied
by 26 = 218 cm or around 7 ft. ?!?
Apparentlyt, the 2 sources conflict. Picards figures end up with different
overall barrel length, whereas the 1758 source has egal length, but the barrel
weight is specified rather the same. Does this make sense to anyone?
Interestingly, I don't recall ever seeing any Lace Wars / 7YW models around that
would match the above range with egal length. Is there anny out? I have a 30 mm
range of French pieces of some English foundry – don't recall the name and are
very well done models – but come with barrels of diffenent length ?!?. Is there
other source out, that arrives at different figures?
I'm aware of the diverse footing between the various countries and periods of
time. That's a science on it's own, I fear. French foot should be around 32,2 cm
("pied de Roi" of 12'' or 144''' at a ratio of 137''' equaling 1 Rhenish foot -
"pied Rhinlandique", which was 31,3 cm by my findings) or alternatively the old
Paris foot (30,8 cm) not to be confused with the revolution meter streamlined
32,5 Paris foot. No idea what foot would apply for the French guns, but I read
elsewhere, many armies at that time would customary employ the "Toise measure de
Paris" (a 6 foot scale) with fortress architecture and military engineering as
the most accepted scale. Possibly also with cannon casting ??? This would call
for the 30,8 cm foot during the pre-revolution 18th c. ancien régime. But I'm
not so sure here. Anyway, most contemporaries did not seem to have cared so
much, but simply ignored those rather minor deviations. So will I for now,
scaling a foot somewhere between 31 and 32 cm, be it Rhenish, Royal, or Paris
scale.
Also the overall weight of a barrel of similar class should deviate to some
extend. So, an overall weight of 3.100 or 3.400 lb for a 12 lb gun would not
necessarily imply different dimensions of any significance, to my understanding.
Taking that "dictionnaire militaire" serious, which I chose to do for this
moment, these figures would make it mighty long barrels. Even for the short 8
and 4 ones. The 12 lb with around 3.400 lb is said to have a 9 horse draught.
According to my findings, you calculate around 450 to 550 lb of weight for a
single draught horse. This adds to 4 to 5.000 lb for the gun+carriage and
limber. To me the 3.400 lb makes sense, so far.
The chambered range of the "new invention" have the below dimensions: 24 lb:
weight 3.000 lb, Length: 6 ft 7''9''' or around 217 cm – 16 lb: W 2.200 lb, L 6
ft 2''4''' or ca. 190 cm – 12 lb: W 2.000 lb, L 6 ft 1''3''' or ca. 187 cm – 8
lb: W 1.000 lb, L 4 ft 11''10''' or ca. 154 cm, and finally the 4 lb: W 600 lb,
L 4 ft 9'' or ca. 147 cm. If this range found employment during the 7YW, I don't
understand all this talk about French guns being too heavy compared to her
opponents guns !?! Maybe that's just another myth?
For better evaluation, I thought of comparing to other ordnance of which is a
lot more rather confirmed data available to me:
The Austrian Feuerstein 12 lb quarter cannon field gun ("Viertel-Kartaune) had a
16 calibres barrel and was a 6-footer (192 cm calculating with 12 cm ball
diameter – also confirmed by Duffy, who states around 190 cm). The Prussian 1758
cast Austrian type 12 lb with 16 calibres was 5 ft 10'' or 184 cm and a weight
of 1.700 lb – the heavy 12 lb 1735 "Brummer" had 26 calibres, which made it a
near 10-footer (around 9 ft 5'') and had a weight of 3.800 lb. It's really a
former siege gun, becoming the regular "heavy 12 lb" field gun only in 1759.
Ioannis' Leuthen Journal provides images of a (Valmy captured?) Brummer at the
Paris museum which should be of the later 22 calibres barrel class (model 1761
and later). Prussian 12 lb ball diameter was 4,36'' Rhenish ft. or 11,4 cm – a
little less than Austrian scale, so, length of barrel should be around 8 ft or
250 cm. Weight is specified by Scharnhost's 1790's tables with 28.5 Berlin
Centner ( 1c = 110 lb) or 3.135 lb. I've seen it 3 years ago, but missed to take
a yard stick along. I recall it being longer, though, than the nearby French
1813 twelve lb, which should be a 18 calibres barrel) This 18 calibres barrel
seems to have been the winner in cannon design by mid-18th century. The
Buckebourg 12 lb of the Anglo-German Allied army was of this class and much
celebrated for it's excellence. There was also an Austrian Feuerstein heavy 12
lb with a barrel of 18 calibres next to the 16 calibre field gun. The Prussians
had cast an awesome 97 "Austrian-type" medium 12 lbs in preperation of the 1759
campaign – all with 18 calibres barrels and becoming the standard 12 lb till
well into the 19 hundreds as noted in Curt Jany's most elaborate work on the
Prussian 7YW army. Weight was around 2.000 lb. The 1758 Prussian 16 calibres
Austrian-type 12 lb re-cast was 1.700 lb (also captured pieces were employed,
but most were Prussian casts, really)