"If I were to start Napoleonics..." Topic

Where should I begin?

My knowledge of the period comes pretty much from Msrs Sharpe and Hornblower.

I enjoy small unit and skirmish games in 15mm or 40mm (never have been wild about 28mm, for full blown battles I like 6mm or 2mm (again I'm not wild about 10mm). I do not like tournament style games, but love scenarios with clear objectives or a bit of backstory.

I know there are a plethora of rules out there and that nearly everyone has at least heard of Napoleon. I have a neighbor who has expressed an interest in starting miniatures wargaming, but afik is about as educated in this period as I am.

Napoleonics are like the great drain of wargaming that I keep circling around but never quite take the plunge.

So if you were in my shoes, what would you do, and why?

6mm as it is very affordable, easy to paint and allows for some great looking games:

link

It also takes up limited space when not in use.

Michael.
angelbarracks.co.uk

For skirmish rules everyone is going to point at Sharpe's Practice by Too Fat Lardies. I am not a Napoleonic skirmish guy so I don't play em, but they sound like they are popular because everyone agrees on how good they are, you may want to check into it.

For larger scale rules you will find great division largely into these camps:

Napy's Battles
1:60 rules (Empire, Legacy of Glory, Corps d'armée, Battles for Empire, others)
1:20 rules (General de Brigade, In the Grand Manner, Bruce Quarrie's rules -technically 1:33)
Other (to include Shako, Shako II, LSF also by Too Fat Lardies, In the Name of Glory, and many other major players in the rules category)
Grande Armée (and others that do not require specific figure ratios when mounting)

None are really bad choices, I like LoG because it follows my school of thought, but other guys do not want to see skirmishers on the battle field even as only decoration, for them there is Napy's Battles. For those who want skirmishers not only for decoration but to control their every movement there is Empire, for those who think that corps take up too much space there are the 1:20 games, etc. We all have our own takes on it.

The issue is finding someone who likes the period and wants to play the same rules, you are in a unique situation in that you are both about to start out and could do so together.

Cheers,

The Bandit

I would attend a few large conventions and gather information from watching and participating in games in various scales.
You may have gathered that most people play a certain set of rules because they are only familiar with one or two. And others pick a scale or a set of rules because it strikes their fancy. Thus there are no "period standards."

Advice? Run away. Pick another period.

Personally, I've always been a fan of gaming an entire battle.

So, if I were starting over, I'd go for 6mm and Grande Armee. Refight Waterloo in a few hours.

here's the link to the GA website. Note that FPGA are free sammustafa.com/fpga.html , and there are many scenarios link for GA

Decide what you want to see or 'experience' in the game. My personal example of this is that I want to see the actual battalions forming column/line/square. This removes quite a lot of rulesets and scales right there.

Since you don't want 25mm figures, then you'd have to go with 15mm for a battalion level game. For games with brigade sized units, 6mm or 15mm is fine.

I disagree on the cost/ease of 6mm vs. larger figures because if you do it right you pack a ton more figures on the bases.

If you want to recreate a major battle (Waterloo for example) then decide how much time/work you want to put into the game. Grande Armee is pretty generic but easy to play. Legacy of Glory is VERY detailed, takes a lot more figures and you need to well trained in the rules. It's up to you as to what you want to see. I'm a LOG man (in 15mm) because I like the detail, but that's me.

Where are you located Clay?

Cheers,

The Bandit

I am about to take this plunge. Usually my period projects take two years to complete (that's about 1000 28mm figs). I'm plumbing for 'Peninsular' as the campaign and battles are managable. I'll be doing it for the next three to four years (about 1500 – 2000 28mm figs). Then I can tick it off my to do list – before I retire from painting completely in 20 years.

My latest project 'The Crusades' is almost finished – only 9 units to do! 1100+ figs in exactly 2 years come Triples 09.

olicanalad.blogspot.com

James

"that's about 1000 28mm figs … about 1500 – 2000 28mm figs … 1100+ figs"

How ever do you find the time to play games using such huge numbers of figures? I find it as much as I can do to handle games using a couple of hundred figures at the most …

IMHO: Napoleonics can be like quicksand. If you are not in love with the period, teach your neighbor what you now game. You both will probably be happier.

I knew a lot about the period before I began gaming. Gaming Napoleonics made me disenchanted with gaming. Tying to game too large a battle with detailed rules meant for corps level appears, in retrospect, to have been my downfall. The games were so slooooooow.

Good luck with whatever you decide!

Hi Mike,

Quite big units (18 cavalry 30 infantry for the Crusades). A thousand figure game takes about 4 – 6 hours using Piquet over two to three Wednesday nights. Of course, having a hobby room with a permanent 12 x 6 table helps.

A couple of things:

Bandit, I'm in North Texas and still love the original LOG rules.

While I don't count figures, I'm positive that I have more than a thousand 25mm Naps. But they don't all hit the table in the same game! (We used to call those 'box emptiers'). And the rules we are using are designed for about 6-8 battalions per player and to complete a game in a few hours.

Olicana,

Weird! I've just finished painting 1000 Naps for the Peninsular and now it looks like my next project is going to be 2nd Crusade.

link

What do you want to see happen? Do you want to watch battalions deploy thier own skirmishers? O are you more interested in the decisions a corp or army commander makes.

For me, if skirmishers and specific formations dont matter, then I am not interested. BUt I do like skirmish, and yes Sharp Practice is a very good set, and as a PDF at a very atractive price.

If you possibly can, find a group in your area, and play a time or two with them. it may not let you know what you dont want, which is always a useful thing.

Insert username has it right – 6mm with Grande Armee – I don't think it is generic – just focussed on grand tactical. I still think it is the best ruleset ever written.

Dave bring your buddy up to Ottawa sometime this year to try it out – we are running at least 5 anniversaries including Aspern Essling at Cangames.

Tod,

I will certainly come up and give it a go. Grand tactical is the level at which Napoleonics appeal to me most. Big armies, fighting big battles, and not needing to worry about every niggling little detail of how each brigade is deployed at any given moment.

It is not the General's job to tell the infantry to "form square" in the face of attacking cavalry.

I game with two scales 5mm and 15mm. I do 15mm AB for the Marengo campaign and the 1799 Suvarov in Italy campaign and for every thing else I use 5mm. I do specific obs for campaigns and am so anal that I have the III corps in Bicorns and the III Corps for 1809 in shakos. This is all 1 to 60.

One aspect is the most important, and that is what is being played in your area. If you are starting I would play as many games as you can and perhaps paint a few units that fits with what the group you are playing.

Next read as much as you can. There are really four ways to look at Napoleonic's in my opinion. First is the grand tactical where the units on the table are brigades. If this is what you find interesting then look for rules that reflect the command and control of the forces on the table, the units at this level are in essence just like counters in a board game. Then there is what used to be the only real option and that is the battalion level, this is the where the units are battalions and you are using the formations of the units as a significant part of the game. The command and control on this level is also crucial some games emphasis it more than others. Then you have the tactical level and this is where there is maybe a division on the table and battalions are built with the companies. This is a rather under represented scale in that most of the battalion games are really no different the Corps level games they just have more figures per battalion. One example of an attempt to capture the specfic aspect of this scale was Chef d Battalion.
Then there is Skirmish which I avoid.

So read and find out what grabs you from reading the battles is it the ability of Napoleon to command his Corps or is it the intricate dance between the Line, Column and Skirmishers.

William

Midpoint,

Mine are for the 1st Crusade / Early Kingdom of Jerusalem, thus proving the multi universe differential theory. Nice work on the Napoleonic stuff – Foundry? I plan on using Front Rank because they also do Spanish.

James

See Crusaders (Perry's) here, photos of more coming very soon:

olicanalad.blogspot.com

Given your start point, start with Sharp Practice, skirmish rules for the Napoleanic period from TooFatLardies.

Doesn't need a lot of figures, is fun to play and while you do the uniform etc research you can decide if you want to fight bigger.

6mm is the best over all viewing scale the terrain looks good and the battle looks right.

erm…. hmmmm…. as a wild -er 'card' option … How about my Nap 90mm die cut card figures… The guys who do 'combat storm' have just about got a set of fast moving adult-teenage rules together… The detail and colour of the period is built in to the figures take-away style, no needy to painty ,,, I reckon they're cool for skirmish – small unit gaming… or even 1:1 sports hall size battles with a few friends together… hmmm guess I'll need to produce a few more regiments before that can look authentic…

like I said… just a wild-'card' thought for someone thinking of starting to game the period.

link (the link takes you through to some free rules and pics of figures in action on my site… although these rules are very simple the ones under development have more unit specific detail and should be ready in a month or two.)

Napoleonics are the Black Hole of wargaming. Once you enter, there is no end to the armies and figures that you are going to want, or think that you want. Don't get started. We warned you.

I'm in the same boat, having been encouraged to start 15mm Napoleonics by a fellow gamer but having no real knowledge of the period or rules. I've got some alternative options to look at as well, including a new ancient / early medieval army for FoG, so have been sitting on the fence trying to make up my mind. I 'think' I'm veering away from it at the moment, especially having read the dire warnings above. Maybe I'll just do a few 28mm skirmish figures instead to save my sanity?

olicana those crusader pics are stunning.

Real inspiration for me and mike.

good work

Mike would be me.

They are almost all Foundry with a few dozen Front Rank and a smattering of Perry.

Just to echo what Der Alte Fritz said:

I have ~1500 painted and ~2400 unpainted, and my collection is what many would call … tiny, infant sized.

Cheers,

The Bandit

Hey, the first corps is free, right?

How hard could it be to stop after the first one?

Right?

If you want to consider grand tactical rules (the basic units are mostly brigades), here is a link to my Easy Napoleonic Rules. The rules (free) are in the Files section in your choice of formats.

link

The major problem with Napoleonics, besides the plethora of rules, is the vast quantity of arcana and esoterica you have to soak up: hundreds of different uniforms, flags, etc. You will need a library of Osprey books or a vast array of website links, and it will all seem overwhelming at first.

It's a lot of fun, though.

I echo WKeyser here, not in the least as his rules are my fav ones.

Read a bit so you get an idea of what you want your game to look like.

Then find some rules which will do that game on your sized table.

Then you know which scale to use, and how many figures you need. And you can also work out a set goal to aim for.

I recommend picking a battle (or section of a battle) and using that to get your target for figures, terrain etc. It also allows you to decline to buy books on the grounds that they are not exactly in your area 'just now'.

Also, you can refight against historic deployments as a solo game, and do genuine what-ifs.

Setting a figure goal and then stopping, especially without a set of rules in mind (and thus basing) is a bit risky (sorry midpoint) as you get to the 'end', and discover you have to make compromises when you want to play. Also, you invariably end up with a brigade of Old Guard, the 95 Rifles and Scotsmen wearing kilts in every battle.

The real cost though, comes in staying 'up' on the literature. So many high quality Napoleonic books, it becomes clear why Ancients players all stick to published army lists and don't worry about uniforms too much. I am quite certain this is why irregular horse archer armies dominated he main rule sets for the last two decades – you let the sculptor do the research, and then just paint them whatever colours you have handy.

I've always struggled with understanding what "scale" an unknown set of rules is written to. Is a "brigade game" one in which each player controls a brigade or is it one where the smallest manavure element (that is stand of figures) is a brigade?

From WKeyser 04 Jan 2009 10:56 p.m. PST
…………

There are really four ways to look at Napoleonic's in my opinion. First is the grand tactical where the units on the table are brigades."Grand Tatical" = one stand is a brigade If this is what you find interesting then look for rules that reflect the command and control of the forces on the table, the units at this level are in essence just like counters in a board game. Then there is what used to be the only real option and that is the battalion level, this is the where the units are battalions and you are using the formations of the units as a significant part of the game.So "Battalion" level = one stand is a battalion The command and control on this level is also crucial some games emphasis it more than others. Then you have the tactical level and this is where there is maybe a division on the table and battalions are built with the companies. So "tactical" level = one stand is a compnay This is a rather under represented scale in that most of the battalion games are really no different the Corps level games they just have more figures per battalion. One example of an attempt to capture the specfic aspect of this scale was Chef d Battalion.
Then there is Skirmish which I avoid."Skirmish"= one stand is a ??? I haven't seen these rules
"

What is the general feeling that this represents a good way to describe the rule sets? Ultimately, I'm interested in figuring out where different rule sets can be put into these pigonholes, what the smallest stand is for the rulesets, the recommended or common sizes and number of figures for the rulesets. Thanks

I call my games "Brigade level". Each player commands a brigade – let's say six battalions of 12 figures each. But the basic unit is the battalion, not the brigade.

I like 1968billsfan's/WKeyser's definitions. Clay, nothing personal, but your style of definition doesn't provide enough information. For instance what would you call rules where the players are brigade commanders, but the basic units they move are companies? (Your 6 battalions of 12 figures each is a pretty small "army.")

I've played Napoleonics for a long time--lately grand tactical through the various versions of Empire, Napoleon's Battles and Grand Army. Legacy of Glory always interested me but I found the turn sequence for the 2 hour battle segment to be pretty daunting. Does anyone know if this been stremlined?