"The future of 25mm+ miniatures" Topic

With the steadily rising cost of tin 25mm and bigger miniatures keep getting more and more expensive. This makes playing even small warband-sized games a very costly hobby. Smaller-scale miniatures, around 15mm and smaller, are looking better every day. This got me wondering how likely is it that companies are going to start abandoning 25mm and larger scales in favor of 15mm and smaller scales? How many people are still willing to buy half a unit of troops in 25mm when for the same price you can get 2-3 full-size units in 15mm? Personally I'd love to see more companies doing 15mm miniatures with the same range and sculpting quality we see in 25mm lines. So, how many other people think that in a few years 15mm miniatures lines could be as numerous and widely used as 25mm miniatures lines are now?

Mr. McGuire: I want to say one word to you. Just one word.
Benjamin: Yes, sir.
Mr. McGuire: Are you listening?
Benjamin: Yes, I am.
Mr. McGuire: Plastics.

;-)

wargamesfactory.com/league

You are probably thinking in The Evil Empire's miniatures. If you look, there are some other inexpensive metal options.
And of course there's the new plastics…

Besides the new 28mm hard plastic figures available from us (Wargames Factory – wargamesfactory.com) and Warlord and Perry and Victrix – there are also LOADS of 1/72 soft plastic figures available out there that are much less expensive than 15s and available for dozens of periods and hundreds of troop types.

The death of 25mm+ figures has been forecast as long as I have been gaming, and they don't call me the Old Fart for nothing.
15mm has always supposed to be killing off 25mm+, and yet they stil are with us. Thank God.
Old argument, never proven or likely.

With the size of my 28mm collection I would never need to go 15mm. Even if i had to do some gap filling at $19.00 USD or more per figure, per month I still have enough to game all the genres I like in 28mm.

Actually, commodities prices have dipped fairly significantly, recently, for most metals, save the precious ones, e.g. silver, gold, and platinum.

Now's the time to stock up.

I think plastics is an important direction. I priced out a 1500pt Wood Elf Army for GW, and it comes in at $240. USD It would probably be twice as much if it were metal (the only EXPENSIVE figures are the leaders at $15 USD and $12 USD each for 2 figures), though rank-and-file metals from GW tend to be a bit cheaper than the competition. Still, for fantasy/SF minis from high profile manufacturers IMHO much of the cost is taken up by overhead and advertising. I still wonder why a 28mm historical of equivalent detail costs $2 USD while a fantasy figure costs $4.50? And when you get into the "boutique" manufacturers (the big ones making skirmish games I see these days) the prices are even higher. Why? Is it just simply consumers are willing to pay the price?

Damon.

With the steadily rising cost of tin 25mm and bigger miniatures keep getting more and more expensive. This makes playing even small warband-sized games a very costly hobby.

As compared to what? Golf? Hardly. Boating? Skiing? Video games?

Nah, 25mm + isn't going to disappear.

I still wonder why a 28mm historical of equivalent detail costs $2 USD USD while a fantasy figure costs $4.50?

A lot of the fantasy figures are used as one-offs. That is, you don't need 42 copies of the same miniature. The market is aimed at role-players and skirmishers.

If I like a figure, I'll buy it. I'm not missing car payments or skipping lunch to afford a mini or two. If I don't like the mini, I'm not buying. Simple as that.

And how many historical gamers these day buy 42 of the EXACT SAME FIGURE??? I know I don't. I'm constantly sampling ranges to get the maximum level of variety, and have a personal standard of no LESS than 4 variations within a single manufacturer range…

Damon.

Probably never. 25mm+ simply has more "oomph" that people are going to stay with. The only transition I can see is plastics 28mm coming more and more to the fore that 15mm metal just can't compete with.

In 1985 I would have thought this was a fresh, intriguing possibility.

Personally I think the way forward for minis games into the mainstream is 40mm+ and action figure styled/sized prepainted plastics. Like the Starwars Unleashed or Galactic Heroes lines from Hasbro. The game they put out supporting Galactic Heroes is already one of the most widely distributed wargames out there. :)

"And how many historical gamers these day buy 42 of the EXACT SAME FIGURE??? I know I don't"

And if there are enough people like you out there expect historical prices to go up. :)

In a word, no. As long as mere mortals want to paint and enjoy the miniatures, they will be 25mm+.

I agree that if anything, many figure sizes will increase. I buy Reaper 'Heroic 25mm' which are ANYTHING but 25mm. I don't think that even their halflings are that short anymore!

35mm is more likely than 15mm.

Regarding how many buy 42 of the same figure, not many. Mainly because not many armies have units that need it. On the other hand, how many people like the rank and file of a unit to be of the same figure – lots. Usually for regular units.

On cost, there have been bigger price hikes in the past – the 70s oil crisis in the UK (and rest of the world?) doubled the price of plastic kits. They re still around. 25mm figures are probably cheaper now in relation to income than they have been art various times in the past, especially if you use budget rather than the more expensive ranges.

"And how many historical gamers these day buy 42 of the EXACT SAME FIGURE??? "

Approriate era (SYW) and/or large units – you Betcha'

"Personally I think the way forward for minis games into the mainstream is 40mm+…"

One Word: Terrain.

That's why many people already in the hobby (and who introduce newbies to it) avoid different scales.

Gracias,

Glenn

So, if I wanted to build some 25mm armies and not pay an arm and a leg, who should I be looking at for miniatures? I look at GW and see boxes of 16 troops for $40.00 CAD For that price I can get about 50 15mm miniatures of a quality comparable to the GW 25mm miniatures. Miniatures from companies like Rackham ($35 for 6 miniatures), Privateer Press ($13 for a single miniature), etc are just as bad. Reaper's new line of lead miniatures are really nicely priced, but I'm unlikely to be able to ever build an entire army out of what they release. I'd rather avoid D&D minis and Wizkids minis because they look horrible (not worth the plastic they're made from). So, who does decent 25mm scale fantasy miniatures that look good and don't cost a small fortune?

Understanding that I keep playing with ideas for 6mm skirmish games, I think many people with "small forces" games (sometimes called skirmish or "Squad to Platoon" games) will like the 25mm figures, especially for WYSIWYG type rules!

Yes 15mm can, and does, challenge that perception. I have Stargrunt forces in 25mm and 15mm because I started with 25mm but think 15mm reflect modern to Sci-fi games just as well visually.

25mm will stick around…

Gracias,

Glenn

Well, Privateer Press is supposed to be starting to transition to plastic stuff for some of their new releases, like the Menoth Bastions (probably got sick of the insane fluctuations of the metal markets).

Oh, do I want those models if they look like the concept art.

I'm kinda torn. I have a lot of 28mm stuff, but I really like 15mm for gaming larger battles (Flames of War sold me on 15mm for "company" to battalion actions). I don't want to maintain several different scales of scenery, though.

Most wargamers I know can afford more 25mm figures than they have time to paint.

"One Word: Terrain."

Counter Words: Visual Impact

Sides, we have enough people complain about fumble fingers and fiddly bits, what happened if wargaming ever hit the mass public? Plus it's more familiar and therefore more likely to sell in big box stores.

"So, who does decent 25mm scale fantasy miniatures that look good and don't cost a small fortune?"

So you want fantasy figures for less than $2.00 USD each? I take it you don't like the people who produce these figures to be able to feed themselves or put out new releases.

My advice is to just buy the quality you want and finish what you start. That way it won't seem so expensive when you look at your project pile. And you'll still have the quality you want at the end of the day instead of whatever cheap crap you could throw together.

Jenkiis:

"One Word: Terrain."

Counter Words: Visual Impact

Me: Avoids the issue. Having terrain in multiple scales drove my aerial games to strictly 1/600th over 1/300th and 1/144 and etc.

More Me: It's aso driving me to consider (given I am committed to Gutshot in 25/28mm scale) dropping some other scales for skimish/small unit games.

Me again: I think "visual impact" ignores (at best) or denigrates (at worst) the impact of other scales which is just as great if done well, just different in style.

Gracias,

Glenn

"Sides, we have enough people complain about fumble fingers and fiddly bits, what happened if wargaming ever hit the mass public? Plus it's more familiar and therefore more likely to sell in big box stores."

And people complain about things in every scale. Given some of the bits plastic modelers use and have used for years I feel this is a strawman argument.

25mm will stay, as will 15mm and 6mm and 3mm and…you get my point…because people seem to be building armies in those sizes plus others.

Gracias,

Glenn

"So you want fantasy figures for less than $2.00 USD USD each? I take it you don't like the people who produce these figures to be able to feed themselves or put out new releases."

What manufacturer of 25mm+ fantasy miniatures sells them for $2 USD a miniature? Most I know are closer to $4-5 each. The only miniatures I know that sell for that low a price are commons for lower-end pre-painted plastic games (D&D and Wizkids).

The Fantasy Range from Ral Partha Europe are around $2 USD a fig
link

Granted they are an older line and nothing new is added to them they are still very nice figures

The last fantasy minis I bought were $10-$15 each… and way too pretty to not buy!

Shadowdragon, by way of apology for my somewhat terse earlier post – us old farts of wargaming remember that in the mid 1980s it was thought by many that 25mms would fall to the onslaught of 15mms, which did not happen – may I suggest –

Vendel, from England: link

Even with shipping from the UK, I think you are looking at little more than $2 USD a figure.

ShadowDragon:"What manufacturer of 25mm+ fantasy miniatures sells them for $2 USD USD a miniature?"

You were complaining about a box of 16 figs 28mm for 40 dollars. That only works out to about $2.50 USD each. That's cheap by any measure.

Megaminis is even cheaper than Ral Partha, but I think in this case you get what you pay for….

Warbead: "25mm will stay, as will 15mm and 6mm and 3mm and…you get my point…because people seem to be building armies in those sizes plus others."

Oh yes, I know. I'm talking about the MASS market. Not the little niche we live in.

Dungeons and Dragons managed to make it almost all the way into the mainstream a few decades ago by making their products more friendly to big box stores and media promotion. It's never really been quite as big again, but I think RPGs are still a bigger business than wargames. Almost up there with board games.

Games Workshop is, for all the crap people give them, is godlike in it's public awareness compared to the rest of the industry for pretty much the same reasons. Though they're doing it with video games…

All others,

Okay, I know I/we are wandering off topic so let make my last OT post and then return to the main thread question afterwards.

Jenkiis,

I am not sure we disagree but I believe Traditional Military Miniatures * will never make it into the Mass Market for lots of cultural reasons.

* By this I am referring to metal/plastic figures/miniatures you buy, base, paint, create terrain for, place on a surface (table, floor, etc.) manuver on that surface, and "shoot" using dice or a other method to determine "killing" of another force's miniature/figure. RPG figures/miniatures fit into that category but are different in certain respects because RPGs themselves don't always use figures/miniatures.

Pre-paints eliminate some of the entry issues for some people but I believe it is an insufficient factor for most mainstream people because it's only a small part of why "playing with toy soldiers/dolls" has never been seen as a "normal" "Adult" activity like drinking to excess, greed, office politics, chasing skirts (and it's female equivalent,) or fixing up "classic cars."

Now, any further comments by me on this side subject will necessitate an new thread.

Gracias,

Glenn

"…Oh yes, I know. I'm talking about the MASS market. Not the little niche we live in.

Dungeons and Dragons managed to make it almost all the way into the mainstream a few decades ago by making their products more friendly to big box stores and media promotion. It's never really been quite as big again, but I think RPGs are still a bigger business than wargames. Almost up there with board games.

Games Workshop is, for all the crap people give them, is godlike in it's public awareness compared to the rest of the industry for pretty much the same reasons. Though they're doing it with video games…"

I must disagree.

D&D (in that evil random package format) had it's moment but now is a niche market itself.

RPGs are not mass market either I'm afraid. Bigger, probably but not Mass Market.

Board games are but the military boardgames (minaitures are merely expensive, "some assembly required" counters after all) are not even if you count games like "Dogfight" into the fold which I do but others do not.

As for GW – We are talking Big Fish in a Little Pond here. And as for video games that is certainly not military miniaturesbecause of the 3D aspect alone.

My preference for smaller figures (1/600th planes, 1:6K ships, 1/300th AFVs) but I see where many people like thier toy soldiers bigger (vision issues, uniform details fetish, and painting being the primary drawing factor for some people.) Hence the 40mm crowd exists and the 25mm/28mm/32mm/etc. crowd will always exist. Will the armies get smaller for those with smaller incomes? Sure, that's always been true. But that is part of the drive pushing "skirmish"war games. People adjust – some buy smaller figures, some spend more, some buy smaller armies, and some move to different genres/hobbies.

But there always will be a group of 25mm+ figures being used on the game tables for decades to come or at least until the current crop of Big Figure Old Farts dies off.

Gracias,

Glenn

One of the original questions:

"…So, how many other people think that in a few years 15mm miniatures lines could be as numerous and widely used as 25mm miniatures lines are now?"

A few years? No. If the providers of 15mm continue to grow and prices stay relatively constant in the cost per unit relationship between scales, then in time (5, 10 years IMO) 15mm may be at parity with 25mm in what percentage of the gaming population uses that scale primarily.

Maybe it's time to repeat the old TMP poll on how many people only play in one scale versus 2, 3 or more scales?

Gracias,

Glenn

Not to change the direction of the thread but I could not seriously buy plastic minis to paint, play and love. They just lack………..Substance. And ahmen to the person that said figures cost more in monetary value in time to paint than they do in the initial purchase. 25-28s' won't be going away anytime soon.IMHO

"But there always will be a group of 25mm+ figures being used on the game tables for decades to come or at least until the current crop of Big Figure Old Farts dies off."

I'm certainly not arguing that point at all. The 'old school' metal minis will always have their champions, but getting people other than the old farts to take miniatures gaming seriously is another matter entirely.

Never said anything about the CMG D&D minis, just the RPG which at one point was even sold in Toys R Us's and are still stocked in just about every chain book store I've ever been in. In it's own section no less.

"And as for video games that is certainly not military miniaturesbecause of the 3D aspect alone."

What's your point? :) Exposure is the name of the game, it doesn't matter if it's not straight up wargaming. It's all about building brand recognition even if they don't make any money off the MMO, console game, or whatever. They are their own hobby as they say simply because the average consumer won't know anything else.