"Can someone explain collectible miniatures to me?" Topic

I'll be at a Con in a few months that is playing host to all varieties of gamers so some of of historical miniatures gamers made a push to get ourselves included. To my surprise and horror, there are some several dozen collectible miniature tournaments and games being run and thus far but four non-collectible miniatures games.

Could someone try to explain to an old grognard like me how to relate to people that are playing these games? Is there any aspect at all of them that is related to traditional miniatures gaming? Can some be won over?

It annoys me too.
The concept that I have to buy a dozen or more packs blindly to get a Churchill is just beyond my feeble mind to grasp.
I MIGHT see the point of it if you took a pack at random, and had a game with the contents. That MIGHT make sense. But the way it is set up now, your "army" is only limited by your wallet. Not unlike the New York Yankees!

You say that as historical gamers you made a push to get yourselves included in the con. Is it a fantasy con? Did you explain to the hosts what your intent was? If it is fantasy did you express your intent? I hope you did because you shouldn't be there under false prestense. A number of historical and fantasy cons have debated letting the other group in. I really dislike both collectible games and evangelists. Im primarily a historical gamer but if I go to a fantasy con that is what Im paying my entrance fee for.

Al

CMG's are here to make money. Period

What advantages are CMG's

1. Retail Space: Less room + SKU's to stock items at your FLGS. (This is the biggest reason)
2. Collect ability: People are notorious collectors, and like the hunt.
3. Time: CMG's are usually skirmish games not requiring lots of figures so its easy to get more people to play the game rather then spend weeks getting an army painted up and ready to play.
4.Trade: Some people like to trade.
5:Precived Value: When you pull out a rare and find out it has a high value, due to rarity or playability you feel as you got more then your monies worth.

I don't like the games myself, but I understand why people do.

………………Doug

It is trying to be a collective local gaming con, including CCGs, RPGs, board games, and video games. My expectation is that the organizers will learn that gamers have less in common than we like to imagine (though I'm running a miniatures game, an RPG, and a board game).

****

One of the things that strikes me about collectible miniature games is that they are designed to be unbalanced. You will lose until you collect the right minis.

Now, one can point at we traditionalists with an accusing finger and say 'well, a King Tiger is going to beat a Matilda every day so you are collecting in the same manner' but, at least in my circles, the difference is that find ways to make the games fun for everyone. Competitive tournaments are alien to us while they are meat and bones to CMGs.

Can someone explain collectible miniatures to me?

Miniatures sold using the same marketing strategy as baseball cards -- artificially scarce items in a series "randomly distributed" in sealed packs. (The quotes are because obviously, the distribution is completely controlled by the manufacturer; they choose which items in the series to designate as scarce and they oversee the contents of each pack and they guarantee a certain proportion across the series.)

Like with baseball cards, there are secondary markets -- people who buy lots of packs and sell the scarce items for whatever the buyer will pay. Any profit on this activity is lost to the manufacturer, which is where the economics of issuing collectibles fails to make sense to me -- even the comic book publishers eventually figured out they could tap into this collectible resale revenue by issuing reprints.

But if the promotion behind the series catches on, it's a proven economic model, in that some consumers will keep buying packs until they get the distribution of scarce items they feel they deserve.

… there are some several dozen collectible miniature tournaments and games being run …

Yes, if the promotion is a game, there darn well better be venues where the customers can play these games, and show off their collections.

Is there any aspect at all of them that is related to traditional miniatures gaming? Can some be won over?

"Dude, let me see your army. Wow, those are some nice figures … I don't play this game so tell me again which ones are rare? That's pretty cool you got such a nice collection."

[listen politely]

"Say, do you see how they shaded the detail in the sculpture here? I bet that's just a standard ink wash. You see right there where the line disappears? That's probably because in these vinyl figures the groove isn't sculpted very deep, or possibly there was some mold-release compound that hadn't been washed off before painting. You can fix it though, with a thin brush and some paint."

[listen politely to make sure you're not boring the guy]

"In fact some people actually strip the paint off of these and repaint them themselves. I can't show you what that looks like because I don't have these, but look at some of my figures where I used the same techniques. See how I have even shading in those grooves? It's just like on your figure but because it's not a production line, I kept cleaning up my mistakes until it looked right… Say have you ever gamed World War II? [or SF or Early Imperial Rome or Fantasy Battle or whatever] … I've got a setup right here, come try a game when you're done."

[later if said party came over to try a game]

"Here's how the game works, you can move your infantry that far and then decide who you want to shoot with your artillery. You know what I like about this kind of gaming? If the army I want to field needs 5 howitzers for its artillery park, I don't have to buy 15 packs of figures hoping to get that many. I just buy 5 howitzers off the rack -- and they're a snap to paint, let me tell you."

[later still when said party is done playing the demo game]

"Thanks a lot for coming and playing at my table. Here's how to contact my gaming group, we meet every Thursday evening, we're always looking for smart mature players like you, come by any time. Bring your friends. We've always got extra armies we need someone to run."

@ Allen

I don't mind that they are trying to get more exposure at a different venue, and to do some recruiting.

As long as they don't talk or look down at the people playing CMG's.

Remember most stores don't carry historical miniatures, and a person's only exposure to miniatures might be playing HeroClix. Some of those games are pretty well thought out, and you can have a good game with them. HeroClix is one of them.

@ malcolmmccallum: watch out and not be converted your self.

Hi my name is Doug and I was a Magic the Gathering addict.

"Is there any aspect at all of them that is related to traditional miniatures gaming? Can some be won over?"

It's still miniatures gaming. You still need an army or a unit of some sort, built with points. There's movement and fire. Don't talk about painting. Don't talk about how your metal is superior to their plastic. Don't bash their game. Maybe mention the economics (why pay $14 USD for random, when you can buy what you want straight from the vendor). Make your game fun. Make your game look good. Be a fun guy to hang out with. Make friends.

I think people get into plastic collectible more than anything because it's an "out of the box" experience. Put your money down and you are ready to play. Your buddy buys a box, bam, you've got a game. That's what you're competing with.

If you can make your historicals attractive, interesting, exciting to play and easy to get into, you should be able to draw converts. When they are interested, they'll be more open to investing in a new genre.

Just a thot.. some catalogs of minis might help..

As Doug says, a pure profit motive……

The companies have decided that they will make the more popular, and sought out items "rare", whether they actually should be, or not, in order to get you to give up your hard earned cash.

That way, they can sell the other, much less popular items that would otherwise sit collecting dust on the shelves as well.

I've always associated two words when it comes to advertizing:

Collectable = Suckers

Bluntly it's just companies that are trying to take their customers for all the money they can get out of them. In my world it's called "despicable"; especially when your marks are kids.

Mugwump

some things missed that appeal to a different type market:

CMGS tend to be centered around popculture(comics, video games, movies) as oppossed to historical culture, thus they typically appeal to younger audiences. Not always, but usually.

They also appeal to a market who want minis ready to use right from the box. You don't have to wait to prep/paint hordes of minis to have a viable force.

The excitement of not knowing what you are getting. Agree or disagree with the concept, masses of people love not knowing what is coming.

Agree or disagree with the concept, masses of people love not knowing what is coming.

That explains all those aisles of generic canned goods at the supermarket… each can labeled only as 'FOOD'.

Its fun to collect stuff. Random nature just adds in a gambling element.

If you can use the stuff you collect in a game as well…..oh yeah!

I wasn't hooked by CMGs, but I was by CCGs so I can see the appeal.

There are some "advantages"

1) They already painted
2) They are extremely tough and don't require special packaging, just toss everything in a box.
3) Because they are random, you will have minis in your collection you would not even dream of buying. In the case of heroclix this means you can field the minor villains which even if available separately would invariably end up unsold in the discount bin.

And drawing that special figure is a lot of fun, regardless …

I don't think anyone should knock ant sort of gaming! If you don't like something then fine don't do it – each to there own. I am and indeed started wargameing historical battles but I am a fantasy player as well!

But lets face it the historical battles you play are fantasy as well you are playing with toy soliders guys and girls – imagining you are the commander of a force long gone and the battle probally won't turn out as an historical result – you are in a fantasy world LOL.

I myself can't paint as well as I could in my youth, its the eyes and teh shacky hands, so I buy these so call collectable figs every now and then. Indeed I've justed started collecting the big Marvel and DC Comic figures and plan to do games using Lego as scenery. The games will still need planning tactics and everything else that goes into so called historical gaming.

As for the manufacturers sure they are out to make money so are the companies making ww2 armies. As for value I'm getting a prepainted 90mm metal figure and a comic full of stats and history for £6.00 GBP I consider that a steal!! 90mm figures unpainted are around £14!!

Agreed you do have wait or hunt down those figs you need – that just gives me time to save up the money needed being retired.

The painting is not bad and works great as a guide if you want to repaint them which I sometimes do.

Anyway my point is gaming is gaming – we have got to keep the hobby going and this helps more power to em I say.

merry xmas, hohoho

I don't think anyone should knock ant sort of gaming!

Sure we can!
My whole point above is that it does not appeal to ME. Not the way I "collect".
Your point about the paint job being "not bad" is damning with faint praise. "Not bad" is not good enough for me.
YMMV

Anyway my point is gaming is gaming

Gaming isn't gaming. Besides the broad gulf between gamers and game players, someone sitting down to play World of Warcraft has very little in common with someone researching the orders of battle for Vimeiro in preparation for gaming it in 1:33 scale.

Some games are simpler than others. Many games require completely different skill sets.

Chutes and Ladders (or its Fantasy variant S&L) is no Chess.

We could bind them all up in a big bundle and simply celebrate the spirit of play but then we point to the extreme ends of tournament play and ask them if they are concerned with their opponent's level of fun.

When I was a young 'un. G.I. Joe was a collectible miniature game. The kid that had the scuba set and helicopter was going to have much more fun than the poor kid who was stuck putting wooden sticks in the Kung Fu grip. Everyone though wanted to play with the kid with the helicopter set though because the fun was shared. There were no G.I. Joe tournaments.

Quite a lot of people play "collectible" games without collecting. They buy single figures off the internet, or share out random boxes among friends so that few figures are wasted. Some of them collect as well, but only as a sideline to the gaming.

One of the things that strikes me about collectible miniature games is that they are designed to be unbalanced. You will lose until you collect the right minis.

These are two unrelated concepts. Balance is when the game is inherently favoured to certain armies. I can name a few historical games that are unbalanced.

Needing to field certain figures to be competitive at a high level is part of many figure games, and unrelated to its collectibility. When I played Warhammer there were "must have" units. I imagine there still are.

The secondary market on eBay means "necessary" collectible figures can be collected quite cheaply for many games (the key Star Wars figures can be expensive, but much cheaper than the GW boar boyz I could never quite bring myself to cough up for). The days of having to buy boosters by the box load until you found the right figure are long over.

"Gaming isn't gaming. Besides the broad gulf between gamers and game players."

I would rather have more game players then less, if we don't demo our games and spread the word then our hobby will shrivle up and die.

CMG's make great gate way games, for people who have never seen a game like ours.

…………….Doug

To my surprise and horror

This right is here the first, most important, and really only problem you have to resolve- you can't be surprised and horrified. If you are there's no chance you'll ever be able to relate, regardless of the good advice given above.

This is coming from someone who indulges in both 'real' gaming along with collectible games. The 'gap' is more perceived then real.

-Will

@ donrice

Like with baseball cards, there are secondary markets -- people who buy lots of packs and sell the scarce items for whatever the buyer will pay. Any profit on this activity is lost to the manufacturer, which is where the economics of issuing collectibles fails to make sense to me -- even the comic book publishers eventually figured out they could tap into this collectible resale revenue by issuing reprints.

Took me a while to figure this one out, but there's a good reason for manufacturers to encourage a secondary market. Quite simply, more figure dealers = even more sales. How many packs do you think a trader has to buy to get ALL the Rares and Very Rares in a set? Answer – LOTS.

And even people who aren't collectors will probably still buy more than they would if they could get exactly what they wanted, and they just end up with a pile of unwanted commons.

I reckon Doug – Inari7 – has it on the nose.