"Post-1809 French Carabiniers (cavalry) questions" Topic

1) What were the distinctions between the two regiments in 1815 (and previous campaigns, if different)?

2) In 1815, these regiments apparently wore a light blue campaign uniform, but was this worn in previous campaigns and if so, how far back?

3) Did both regiments carry an eagle in 1815, or was there just one for the "corps"?

4) I have read (only once it has to be said) that these regiments were nominally part of La Garde – is this so?

5) Anyone know what uniforms Blancard and his staff wore in 1815 – official regulations, or otherwise?

6) Did the Carabiniers carry carbines/musketoons in 1815, or were they ditched, as they were by some Cuirassiers?

7) Did the trumpeters adopt the Imperial Livery in 1812, or did they retain the older "reverse colours" like La Garde?

8) Subject to the usual strictures about campaign attrition is it correct to say that both regiments rode black horses?

Many thanks, in advance, for any answers.

(I was going to apologise for posting in English on the French board, because I don't known enough technical phrases to ensure I get the sense right. Then I noticed that pretty well all of the posts on the French board are in English! C'est la vie!)

In Russia before the battle of Borodino the regiment lost half of the white coats due to the capture os some baggage waggons by cossacks.
From then on it is believed that the troopers did wear the light blue uniform – also shown by a battle field painting of Albrecht Adam in Munic.
From then on, there exist a lot of contemporary pictures showing Carabiniers in the light blue uniform, but the white one still existed – most likley for parade dress.
Patrice Courcelle did a very good discussion in one of his Carnets about the battle of Waterloo on this subject.
They were not nominally in the Guard.

IIRC, the only distinctions were on the cuffs which were covered by the gauntlets. I don't think the collar was different.

1er Caribiniers 1815

link

2eme Carabiniers 1815

link

note the collars and turnbacks, and the notes re. the habit veste

The carabiniers were not Guard troops, but elite heavy cavalry, as the cuirassiers were.

Sincerely,
Kevin

5) We don't know for sure.
However ….
-- général baron Blancard was a prior commander at the regimental level, serving as colonel en 2e from 23 janvier 1807 and then colonel …. so he had plenty of time to get his armor
-- the brigade commander of carabiniers during both the 1ere and 2e restaurations was a royal family member. Both had their portraits painted in armor
-- there was a portrait of the général baron Blancard that hung in his family home until perhaps just before the first world war. It is gone now, and neither the local historians nor any art collector that I have found can trace its whereabouts. However, in the late 1800's, a descendant who joined the military wrote about how imposing and singular was this portrait – so great an example of martial virtue that it led him to chose the military as a career. One might wish to suppose that the général baron Blancard had had himself painted in armor.

So, overall, I would go with the armor for général baron Blancard during the Cent Jours.

His "staff" as a brigade commander of heavy cavalry would have been one officer aide-de-camp, or at most two. I do not know who perfrmed this function for him at Mont-Saint-Jean. I think it can be assumed that the function would be filled by a carabinier officer.

Commanders of troops who wore the cuirass were supposed to also wear one.

Here are my 15mm Carabiniers, based for Grande Armee:
picture

Have you seen the Detaille painting of General d'Hautpoul? It's really magnificent and I think Detaille's best. It not only captures the general, but the period.

Sincerely,
Kevin

Although the Carabineers were not, officially, part of the Garde (and would be brigaded with Cuirassiers – and sometimes Dragoons – as part of the Heavy Cavalry Reserve), I did read somewhere that they considered themselves to be "a la suite de la Garde". Ah well; a thought's as good to a fool as a physic if it works in him.

picture

6) long arms

I would be thinking perhaps "no". There were sufficient issues just getting men, horses and armor into the field, and the "fashion" of using actually equipping the French heavy cavalry with their long arms seems to have been waning since 1812. This is only a conjecture.

1er carabiniers 15 juin 1815
32 officiers (46 horses)
402 sous-officiers et carabiniers (426 horses, 257 cuirasses)

2e carabiniers 10 juin 1815
30 officiers (41 horses)
383 sous-officiers et carabiniers (373 horses, 225 cuirasses)

wow a very nice Hautpoul by Detaille.

Robert le Diable, the carabiners of course considered themselves to be the top of the tops, much better than the Guard.

3) aigles & drapeaux

confimed as received, one per regiment of the new "1815" model, per an inspection summary dated 7 juin

See
O. Hollander
Nos drapeaux et étendards de 1812 à 1815
Paris: Berger-Levrault et Cie., 1902

To all,

Thanks for the replies, lots of food for thought there. I was familiar with the "Cent Jours" website – in fact, it was what inspired these questions.

To chasseur a cheval,

Interesting data on cuirasses – about 5/8 of the enlisted men. By my calculation, if you remove the NCOs, you would be left with enough cuirasses to equip approximately half of the privates. Do you think that the front rank were armoured and the rear rank simply wore rolled greatcoats?

Super Max,

I have never seen a description of how the armor was distributed. Your suggestion seems to me sensible, either as a specific tactical choice, or because veterans (in the front line) would be more likely to have their armor.

I have French for 1815 – but have not done any réserve de cavalerie yet for them. I was thinking of the carabiniers' divison, and I think I would follow your suggestion.

As a related aside, the 11e cuirassiers seem to have had few or no cuirasses for the troopers.

CaC, Thanks again.

One general Officer, brigadier Chouard, was a former Carabinier and retained some of the characterics of their uniform, especially the helmet (black crested) and the copper plated cuirass.

Unfortunatly his career as an heavy cavalry general was quite short as he was badly wounded at the Moskowa shortly after having been promoted BG.

Front rank makes a very interesting figure of him, ready to lead your brigade (if 28mm of course!)

Although not part of the Guard, the two Carabiniers regiments were regarded as the elite of the heavy regiments: "les grenadiers de la cavalerie".
Their name comes from their "primary", or so supposed, weapon: a "carabine" which means a special rifled version of the cavalry short musket.

The use of the light blue surtout in campaign looks to have been restricted to ranks and files, officers keeping the white habit for battle.

The difference between the 1st and 2nd Rgt is the colour of the cuffs (red or blue), usually hidden by the gloves on most miniatures…

By tradition, and as far as possible, those regiments wre to ride BLACK horses.

Both had eagles carried by an NCO.

It is unclear when trumpeters turned to imperial livery but they dis. before or after Borodino is the point.

When the heavy regiments used to get short in cuirasses, unprotected men were used to form the second ranks.
The absence of the item was not enough of a reason to stay home. Only the number of availabale mounts was a limitation in 1815.

Hard to paint figures anyway…

"En Avant!"

I prefer the uniforms pre 1809 with the bearskins style head dress like the Grenadiers a chevel. I don't know if any miniature makers have them for pre 1809.

The Carabiniers nick name was 'the big brothers of France'.

I recall that the old Napoleon Magazine had a article on them.

Louis-Claude Chouard (15 août 1771 à Strasbourg – 15 mai 1843 à Nancy).

See

link

I wasn't going to bring up the 1809 (and earlier) uniform because I didn't want to take this off topic…but since it's already happened….

The bearskin uniformed Carabiniers is the reason I started an 1809 collection many years ago. Beautiful figures to paint.

(Are the 'post 1809' version really that hard to paint?)

AB miniatures make them in 15mm, this is my photo labum of my own collection with several pictures of them :

picture

Shane,
Come on ,change that flag ;)

Thanks for the extra info everyone. I prefer the bearkskin version as well, but needed the post-1809 info.

Did the NCO eaglebearer wear a colour belt or similar crossbelt, and what rank badges would he have had? Any pics/links would be useful.

Good grief! The flag! The horror!

Full disclosure….I've done the exact same thing. I'm so ashamed….

Clay Smith, I thought I read you were a 'Elitist' in another thread? How could this happen!

lol, I did not even notice that, I shall get on to it right away !!

Eagle bearer should be a maréchal logis en chef, as for a colour belt, not that I am aware of it, the staff od the eagle was placed in a stirrup shoe.

Pre 1809 – my favourites as well, AB did some very nice ones.

You are right Von Winterfeldt! And most probably this Maréchal des logis-chef was the most ancient NCO of the unit.

Considering the gloves, only a very small part of the rank insigna should be apparent. But another thing is that this veteran probably bears also some "chevrons"(at least one), red as usual and worn on the upper left arm.

I have never seen any colour belt for cavalry regiments…
Most of you look to be dedicated 15mm gamers. Considering painting on a larger scale figure (I do 28mm), the difficulty of those post 1809 carabiniers is the two tones cuirass, and especially the limits between the white metal band around the neck and the arms, and the rest of the piece, plated with copper.
The buff and white belt is also a challenge.
All this depends of course of the amount of datails and realism someone expects to achieve.

To end on a detail, I would add to my precedent post that what's really makes the difference at first glance "on the table" between the 1st and 2nd regt is the lining of the horses "shabraques" (sheepskins).
Red for the 1st and blue for the 2nd.

That's it – I've been looking for a name change…now I have it.

Clay

Hip Hip!

Good looking name

Thanks for all the replies. Hope you all had a good Xmas and the best for 2009 to everyone.