""Grognard" for Miniature Gamer?" Topic

I've always thought that "grognard" was a term usually used to describe Board Gamers (and particularly, the big Hisotical ones), but have seen the term used a few times recently to describe miniature gamers.

It struck me as odd.
Thoughts?

I guess I am dense ( more than usual). What is a grognard?

Grognard to me implies more than just 'old school' and more than just boardgamers. It is grumbling old wargamers who have a loyalty for history the way the Old Guard had for Napoleon. Grognards are not gosh-golly-fun folks about their gaming.

GW has its Grognards too. I'm one. Though I don't currently play I will vehemently denounce anyone that does not know the difference between Orc and Ork. Orcs are NOT plants! I still have my Fmir and Chaos Dwarf armies.

Similarly to malcolmmccallum, I recently referred to myself as a grognard in another thread because of my preference for old 40k over new 40k.

"Grognards are not gosh-golly-fun folks about their gaming."

Perhaps you've not met enough, then.

Allen

I'd always heard and read the term "grognard" meant "old wargamer," or just "long-time wargamer." From the old French term for Napoleon's grumbling Old Guard. I've heard the term applied to miniatures wargamers and board wargamers for decades, although, truthfully, I don't think I've heard it used for long-time role-playing gamers.

Is there a term for us ancient geezers who would go back to 1st edition Traveller, 1st ed AD&D, or TFT/ITL if we decided to get back into RPGs?

1st ed AD&D? Hell no. AD&D was a blasphemous complication of white box D&D.
You never heard of preachers condemning "Advanced" Dungeons and Dragons from the pulpit, did you? No sir, it was good old plain Dungeons and Dragons.

We really have to let Jake do one of his "Armor thickness chart goes to slope chart goes to caliber of round chart goes to range chart goes to Lot number of propellant games" games. I know it will make him happy

"Grognard: a soldier of Napoleons' Old Guard; a veteran soldier; grumbler (French) – Oxford English Dictionary, 2nd ed

"Grognard: (slang) an experienced wargamer – John Young, Strategy & Tactics magazine"

link

I have never heard the term applied to boardgamers. It refers to old time miniature gamers, who date their beginnings to Scruby Figures and reading War Gamers Digest, and The Arm Chair General, and who were around when Jack and Don had their falling out. They also used Hinton Hunt figures and disappointed when Alberken sold out to Neville Dickinson. They cast their own figures in plaster of paris moulds with metal that melted in boiling water.

Figures were moved individually and Guards shot one die per 5 but line did one die per 6 figures. Joe Morschauser's suggestion of putting figures on movement trays was a revelation. Light infantry could move forward, shoot and move back.

Grognards are people from those days. Even before Tactics II.

Interesting. I've learned something today…

I've heard it used for both board and miniatures gamers.

Even though I started with Morschauser rules and didn't use individually based figures, I consider myself a grognard.

The second G is silent (kind of).

You should visit BGG sometime. The wargamers went off for days on how you actually pronounce the word GROGNARD. I mean some people really need to get a life.

This is a great site that claims the "real" origin of grognard as it is applied to wargamers. link

From Shared Fantasy: Role-playing Games as Social Worlds
By Gary Alan Fine
Published by University of Chicago Press, 1983

"grognard War gamer; particularly one concerned with extreme realism."

"* Napoleon Bonaparte's name for old veteran soldiers; specifically the Grenadiers of the Imperial Guard (Grenadiers à Pied de la Garde Impériale). They were the soldiers who were old enough to know what was going on, but junior enough in rank not to be able to affect it, and constantly complained about it.
"* slang for someone who enjoys playing board wargames. This use is supposed to have been coined by John Young in the early 1970s while employed by Simulations Publications, Inc. Originally this term referred to the "old guard" of gamers who were playing military board games prior to 1969.
"* Inside the computer game development industry, the term grognard is used to name fans who will buy every game released in a certain genre of game (RTS, RPG, etc.). These dedicated game players are often viewed as a blessing and a curse, as they will ensure a certain minimum level in sales, but they will also be the most critical of any mistakes or bugs in the game.
"* In the board game, role-playing game, miniature wargaming and computer game genres, a grognard is an ultra-hardcore gamer, seeking reality and assembling detailed tables of probabilities and statistics. It may also refer to someone with a detailed knowledge of real world history without necessarily being interested in becoming a good player or having a detailed knowledge of game mechanics or play. It also refers to players who prefer some past, usually out of print game or edition of a game, to current games or currently-printed editions of same.
"* The term "grognard capture" extends from this idea of the ultra-hardcore gamer to the consideration of how such gamers' expectations regarding the nature of a game, sequel, or new edition in any of the above genres must be balanced against the difficulties that this may cause new players unfamiliar with the genre, game, or player culture; grognard capture occurs when balance is not met and the new work begins excluding the possibility of new players. This phrase was coined and later popularized by Greg Costikyan."

[ link ]

As it applies to boardgames, I have always assumed it applied to pre-SPI Avalon Hill games, like Stalingrad or Afrika Korps.

I resemble these remarks…

OFM, I would think that even later games likeEuropa or even World in Flames would count…

A grognard is the guy who still plays Arab-Isreali Wars once a moth but spends the rest of the month planning his tactics.

I resemble these remarks…
Hella's blue Balls, but I predate those remarks, LOL – I started gaming about the time Scruby's mini's came out – I started with Brittains & Elastolins & blocks of wood.

Does this make me a Penultimate Grognard? Whose gaming career on this forumn predates 12/25/1958 at 8:00 am Central time?