"Semi-Auto LMG Capability" Topic

A few questions which link to a game that I'm running next week.

With regard to LMGs how often is the semi-automatic capability actually used in reality? Do LMG gunners tend to fire short bursts and/or fully automatic sweeps, rather than firing off one or two rounds? Indeed does it really depend on the weapon being used? I ask as one of the weapons to be used in the game is a Lewis Gun and technically it can fire in the semi-automatic mode. However, is it more likely that a gunner would always fire bursts rather than single shots? To that end is that why modern squad automatic weapons generally don't have the semi-automatic function?

I am considering removing the semi-automatic function as being "unrealistic" and a bit "gamey", but wanted to know what people thought first.

Thanks

The BAR had a semi-auto switch. How often it was used,…???

I was a machinegunner of both an M-60 and a SAW.

We were trained to fire in bursts with "hose" fire being used on rare occasions such as when an enemy is full out attacking you, one is trying to keep the enemies heads down while your platoon manuevers through an open area, etc. Primarily you do not go full bore as it will just destroy your barrel PDQ.

As for WW I stuff I have no idea- I cannot imagine an LMG ever being used in semi-auto mode (although I got good enough trigger control on my M-60 to single shot it)

so did the MG 34.

I think gamers without resupply rules don't know how heavy ammunition is.

KAM

As a caveat- for a game I would just go with the burst fire idea. If the lewis gunner is going to fire semi-auto then whats the difference between that and a bolt action rifle?

Unless this is a super-detailed, individual man per figure game where ammo is tracked then I dont see the point in semi-auto fire of an LMG.

Perhaps the semi-auto mode was used when determining fire avenues, beaten zones, etc. when setting up fixed positions?

Damon.

Garand: That's what I was thinking.

I have always wondered why the BAR had two other rates of fire besides semi auto. What was the point of that with a weapon with such limited magazine capacity anyway?

With the Bern we were taught and did fire bursts of 3 rounds as the normal. I have on occasion fired a single round it often was all that was needed. Only only once did I fire a burst long enough to empty the magazine.

I have good reason to believe that lewis gunners had similar training and practice and that modern British practice is much the same.

x42

Take a look at the manual for the Lewis Gun:
link

It says that single shots can be fired "by pressing and quickly releasing the trigger" (p.40, scan index 031). No mode selector on this one.
See page 83/scan index 052 for when single shots could be used.

From what I've read, from discussions with LMG users going back to WWII, and practical experience, the "semi" setting was nothing more than an attempt to appease the ordinace officers worried about wasting ammo.

From practical experience the ability of a gunner to squeeze off single shots showed they knew their gun and how to use it.

As for a Lewis gun I don't think you'd want to fire much over 10 rounds bursts with the barrel shroud pushing all that gas back into your eyes. Learned that the hard way and gave the gun owner a good laugh for listening to him and letting the drum rip.

Wasn't the Lewis mag 47 rounds ?
Bursts from 5 to 10 rounds would seem appropriate
IMHO

As a caveat- for a game I would just go with the burst fire idea. If the lewis gunner is going to fire semi-auto then whats the difference between that and a bolt action rifle?

This is the problem I'm trying to avoid. I don't want players using the theoretical single shot capability (I now see that this was down to the gunner with the Lewis Gun), to snipe away at targets and to avoid recoil penalties. It's something that cropped up with, as stated above, with the MG34. What was the point of all that firepower and then build in a semi-auto mode! Of course that went out the window with the MG42.

Do you think that a semi-automatic mode is more appropriate to say the RPK, which is, in effect, a super-sized AK47?

Possibly. An M60 is certainly controllable enough to single-shot just with trigger control (didn't get enough rounds to figure out where the breakpoint was on the one I qualified on, but about half the guys newly qualifying figured out how to singleshot), but that big buffer spring in the stock helps.

I know the M14 had a selector initially, but nobody used Auto because you couldn't control it.

I don't have any experience with Russian hardware, where's Sergeis?

I would doubt it on the Russian MG.

That doesn't mean it can't be done, but I think most training throughout the world is for short, well-aimed bursts, in order to maximize projectiles on the target, and to keep ammo usage to a minimum.

Of course, if being attacked at close range, in a human wave attack, or when targets of opportunity are packed tightly together, that goes out the window.

I carried the old FN C-2,a heavy barrel,30 round mag.,bipod version of the FN.The ammunition was carried in a four pouch "bra" across the chest(I wore two)this weapon had a single shot capability.The ammo weighed in at 1 pond per 20 rounds,it was a rare day to fire single shot,3-5 round bursts are the order of the day.Single well aimed shots were the job of the riflemen,we had no auto fire in our old FN.that of course could be remedied with a paper matchstick.

My uncle used to handle a bren so I asked him. His reply was that he was taught to fire in short bursts using the mantra '101' which would indicate a burst of 3 rounds. He doesn't remember firing single shots, he said if that was required there were plenty of rifles around!

Are you sure semi-automatic is the correct term? From the way I'm reading it being interpreted here, I'm surprised the gun enthusiasts here haven't jumped in. "Semi-automatic" is a very specific term (and "automatic" is often used mistakenly in its place). It means one shot and the weapon reloads itself. Like a pistol or the M1 garand rifle the US forces used.

With respect to limited rounds, the way military forces train anyone with automatic weapons ("automatic" is what a machine gun is) is to fire in short bursts, of varying number of bullets depending on the weapon and weather it's a "ranging" or a "killing" burst. It was tracked by tracers when I fired a coax from my AFV and when I did training as an infantryman and used a 30 round magazine fed Canadian section LMG, it was very short bursts as well, but I can't remember the number of bullets.
--
Tim

Oddly, I had a conversation with a Tubruk/el alemein vet who stated the bren gunners were instructed within his unit to only fire single shots, saving bursts for last resort. The were considerd a platoons main fire asset, and did not reveal their location unless the situation was dire.

The Bren has a "selective fire" mode.

I don't see why you need to punish players for being innovative and resourceful, seems perfectly reasonable behavior to me. Its a trade off, resource management/concealment versus sure casualty.

As indicated in the Lewis Gun manual linked to above, it didn't have a fire selector so could only fire on full auto. It was possible to fire a single shot by tapping the trigger, but the case it cites when this is appropriate is when the gun is clamped on a fixed line and effectively being used as a fixed rifle.

Oh, there's also a short section in Clancy's Clear and Present Danger about how the SAW gunners were shooting in a night ambush, firing single-shot or short bursts. Once the team shifted to a break-contact idea, the SAWs started firing long bursts. Not sure how real an idea it is (M60 only has a safety, not a selector, and I've never handled a SAW), although I've seen SEAL training that was similar.

Ditto Bird: In this case, it is being used correctly: Some automatic weapons do have a selector switch (AK series, M16, M14/BAR, etc.) that changes the weapon from a firing one shot per trigger pull to firing multiple shots per trigger pull. On the M16, the settings are Safe, Semi, and either Full or Burst (depending on variant). Other selective-fire weapons just have iconic representations (most H&K).

We were taught to get 3 to 4 round bursts with the M-60. For long range sustained fire on a tripod, we went for 6 to 10 round bursts.
Putting the single shot option on the Lewis seems like the magazine cut off on my 03 Springfield. Infantry, once magazine-fed, bolt action rifles were adopted, were taught to load the magazine, flip the cut off on and fire single shots, keeping the full magazine to halt a charge. In most cases the troops fired off the magazine.
Natokina.

The three round mantra is"son of a bitch"

I would imagine forces such as paras, would find it a useful feature in a bid to conserve ammo where resupply could be very erratic.

A previous post on TMP on German paras stated they preferred the MG34 to the MG42 due to its lower ROF.

Number of years ago fired over 1000 rds with the LSW (heavy barrelled SA80) in bursts of 1 to 3 rounds, would have jammed otherwise

Short, controlled bursts are the mantra of the LMG. If you're trying for surpression fire, or are ambushing a column, then you could certainly spray lead downrange, knowing you'll hit some and the rest will dive for cover. Some uses in tight quarters, of course.. Kick down the door, hose down the room.

Hi

Well, I haven't fired some of the weapons above.

But some.

A slick bolt action rifle can do decent fire one round or so a second. A 03 or a manlicher has the "balence" that it drops after recoil right back to the aim point. Modern "sporterized" hunting rifles of the same action will no. The extra weight is the key.

Firing short bursts on the Lewis is kind of necessary for several reasons. One, it moves a LOT, you can put a few rounds on a man but more rounds just sprays around. The drum on top is moving and it upsets things.

The BAR, that weight really helps in the situation, it moves, but controls the "high powered rifle" cartridge(been hearing that on TV!) a lot better. And you can do some reasonably precise 3 and 5 round bursts on, say, a window at decent ranges. The magazines change out easily.

The Garand is a compromise. Like the O3, the balence is such that it drops down on the target, and emptying a clip on target in, say 4 or 5 seconds is pretty easy. My uncle, 82nd in WW2, used to insist that the firepower ment he thought LMGs weren't useful. But he was a small man and a para, and that might have changed his opinion. His brother, my dad, insisted that I was a "natural" BAR man! But was 8" and 100# bigger than my paratrooper uncle.

Most people found the full auto function on the M14, being lighter than it needed, uncontrollable. I rather liked it, HOWEVER….

You can always spot a shooter rather than a 'cruit". A shooter even on auto has a characteristic "pop pop" or "pop pop pop", rather than spray and pray.

On the other hand, my buddy the crazy ranger used to explain it differently. he would "pop pop" but as he was leaving he would spray the clip. "They don't know you ain't aiming".

Rocky

I learned on the Bren and FN MAG GPMG – both had selective shots which, IIRC, we only ever used in range training. but then i never had to fire them in anger.

I can think of 1 good reason for firing semi-auto in anger – to conceal the location of the gun.

The LSW (LMG Version of the SA80) is quite often used as a semi-auto DMR as well. Mostly because of it's good accuracy and small ammunition capacity. It has been largely replaced in it's original LMG role by the Minimi. :) (And yes, I'm new here :p)

Welcome to the forum Dan.

DMR ?
I've heard of AMR ( anti materiel rifle ) but not dmr.
My interest in the military kind of tails off after 1945 though.

Ah, Designated Marksmans Rifle – it's an American term but I figured (perhaps wrongly) that the majority of people here would be American :p Most of our infantry sections as far as I know have 6 SA80's, one SA80 with a grenade launcher, and one LSW. As it was explained to me by the sergeant I was talking to in the mess at RMP selection, the GL is given to the worst shot with the hope that he can at least hit something with it, whilst the LSW is given to the best shot and he is tasked with specific targets in the absence of a dedicated sniper. I'm not sure how the issuing of Minimis is done now as I think they are also issued at section level, I know the machine gun platoons seem to still stick with the Gimpy and I can't see the Minimi replacing that as the beaten zone is too small.