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"Horus Hersey History Happenings?" Topic


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richarDISNEY21 Nov 2008 9:27 a.m. PST

Ok. I need another 40k history lesson….

So why did Hours go over to chaos? And how/why did the other Chapters went over with him? Was this ever described?

Also, I thought that the Emperor got killed with his fight with Horus. No? Did Horus get killed also?

It is said that the 20 Primarchs are 'sons' of the Emperor. That they were made under the Imperial Palace, but then they got 'lost'? How ??? You don't forget where you put cloning chambers like you forget where you put yer keys down, do you? And who did the cloning? The Emperor himself? Why?

How may of the Primarchs survived after the Horus Hersey? Are they still around in the current edition of the game?

They also say that the Astartes was with the Emperor during the Great Crusade, and that lasted over 200 years. How long does the Primarchs live for?

Who did the second founding of the sub-chapters?

Is there a good fan site around that has the history all laid out?

Lots of questions for a 40k re-nubie… huh?

avidgamer21 Nov 2008 9:51 a.m. PST

You should start reading the Horus Heresy series of books. It is all spelled out in detail and a great read to boot! Of course they aren't up to the epic battle on Earth yet but just keep reading.

None of the Primarchs are still around.

Parmenion21 Nov 2008 9:53 a.m. PST

Is there a good fan site around that has the history all laid out?
You can get a lot of the basics at Lexicanum. Here are a couple of pages on the Horus Heresy and the Primarchs:

link

link

I'm afraid my own knowledge on the subject is a few editions out of date…

Garand21 Nov 2008 10:03 a.m. PST

Actually there are quite a few primachs around, like Angron, Fulgrim, etc. Basically many of the ones that fell to chaos and were rewarded as chaos daemons….

Damon.

GypsyComet21 Nov 2008 10:05 a.m. PST

The four primary Traitor Primarchs may still be around, as the timewarp of the Eye makes their already long lifespans even longer. None of the loyal Primarchs are still among the living, though there are Chapter legends about several of them "coming back". Amusingly, the two that come to mind are also the two loyalists who hated each other. The fates of the others, both loyal and traitor, are fairly well established.

Jovian121 Nov 2008 10:06 a.m. PST

What do you mean there aren't any of the primarchs around? Lion El'Johnson is "asleep" in the Dark Angels fortress monastery locked deep within the catacombs – awaiting the call for his return from his stasis field.

Parmenion21 Nov 2008 10:13 a.m. PST

My own admittedly out-of-date understanding is that, as they are now Daemon Princes, the Primarchs Angron, Fulgrim, Mortarion and Magnus are effectively immortal. Leman Russ was last seen chasing renegades into the Eye of Terror, but claimed he would return one day. And as Jovian1 mentioned, since 2nd ed 40k Lion El'Johnson has been said to be 'asleep' in the depths of their base (in 1st ed, he was said to have been killed in a duel with Leman Russ).

None of them are currently active in the Imperium – all are either known to be dead, presumed dead or have become daemonic.

Warlord21 Nov 2008 10:36 a.m. PST

This use to be my favorite history in the 40K, and I could maybe answer your questions but I know they changed things in the history of 40K.

I started playing (and since stopped about 5 years ago) about 20 years ago. It was a different game then…

Here is what I know (based on history years ago):

"So why did Hours go over to chaos? And how/why did the other Chapters went over with him? Was this ever described?"

Yes it was and in detail, they were seduced by Chaos, These guys though they were helping the Emperor in spite of him self in the beginning and as it became more apparent what they had truly done it was (for lack of a better way to say) "to late" to turn back – they had been tainted.

"Also, I thought that the Emperor got killed with his fight with Horus. No? Did Horus get killed also?"

The Emperor was NOT killed but so badly wounded he was then committed to the "throne" (more like a life support system at that time. Warmaster Horus was Killed – he had the Emperor beaten in the fight. The Emperor was holding back because of his loved for – (Horus) – his "son" if you will and Horus was so seduced ridden that he was throwing everything at him… but in a flicker the Emperor realized what he was doing and Horus became his self for a few moments and that is when the Emperor dealt the fatal blow.

"It is said that the 20 Primarchs are 'sons' of the Emperor. That they were made under the Imperial Palace, but then they got 'lost'? How ??? You don't forget where you put cloning chambers like you forget where you put yer keys down, do you? And who did the cloning? The Emperor himself? Why?"

I get a little hazy here, but from what I understand they were not "created" on Earth but another place and were on their way to the Imperial Palace when they were scattered through the universe to various planets.

I don't remember who did the cloning, they were his sons because they were part of his genetic material. A lot of this was veiled in shrouds of mystery and secrets.

"How may of the Primarchs survived after the Horus Hersey? Are they still around in the current edition of the game?"

I believe all survived except for Sangenious (Blood Angels) and Warmaster Horus. Many conflicting stories about who is around and how…

"They also say that the Astartes was with the Emperor during the Great Crusade, and that lasted over 200 years. How long does the Primarchs live for?"

To the best of my knowledge they never set a time – however because of the Gene seed (which all Marines have 2 of) they live forever. The Gene seed also acts like a recorder so for instance once you are implanted with it you have all the experiences/ memories of all the Battle Brothers who had that seed before you. It is the MOST precious assets the Marines have.

This is also why the Chaos Marines are so Dangerous, Chaos alters the perception of the Gene seed, thus altering the Marine himself – along with other negative effects (many others).

"Who did the second founding of the sub-chapters?"

The sub-chapters were formed so that power was limited. When the heresy happened Marine chapters could have 10s of thousands of Marines and when they seduced the Primarchs, they got control of the some of the MOST powerful military units of humanity – the Marines. This is also why WARMASTER HORUS was seduced.

During a celebration of Horus's major victory, the Emperor was so moved that he gave his favorite son the title of Warmaster and had the Marines under his command swear allegiance to Horus alone (so deep was his love and trust and pride for him) .

Now Marine chapters are only 1000 Battle brothers, this is also why most chapters are very orthodoxed because most of the second founding chapters are from the Ultra Marines.

Now if this happens again, it would be easier to managed – if you will – (only a thousand instead of 10s of thousands)

Once again this is from the history "I read" and based on memory so it may have changed, these are also quick answers – 40K is rich with history and fluff!

Some areas you can read some history:

Books
Realms of Chaos – Slaves to Darkness
Realms of Chaos – Lost and the Damned
Warhammer 40K Rogue Trader
Warhammer 40K Copulation
Warhammer 40K Compendium
Finial Liberation (computer game rule book which has some history in it)
Horus Hersey board game
Space Marine Novel (Ian Watson)
Inquisitor Novel (there were 2 in this series, he actually goes to the Imperial Palace and speaks to the Emperor which really gives you a lot of insite about the Emperor)

Others can most likely add to this list, I know I missed some.

Hope that helped.

Ivan DBA21 Nov 2008 10:39 a.m. PST

"Ok. I need another 40k history lesson…."

There is a common misperception that Rogue Trader was set back in the Horus Heresy. In fact, 40K has always been set in the 41st millennium. The Horus Heresy was first explored in Epic: Space Marine. It has recently been the subject of numerous books. Although fans are now converting lots of Horus Heresy era armies, I don't think GW has ever published army lists or run events set in that time frame.

"So why did Hours go over to chaos? And how/why did the other Chapters went over with him? Was this ever described?"

Horus was badly wounded by an ultra-deadly alien weapon. He seemed to be near death, and in desperation, his legion handed him over to a "warrior lodge" on Davin. This was in fact a Chaos Cult. Horus recovered, but was seduced into Chaos in the process.

"Also, I thought that the Emperor got killed with his fight with Horus. No? Did Horus get killed also?"

NO! The Emperor lives on, enthroned on Terra. Although his body is wasted, his mind controls the Astronomican, the psychic beacon that guids Imperial ships through the warp. The Emperor slew Horus with a blast of psychic energy.

"It is said that the 20 Primarchs are 'sons' of the Emperor. That they were made under the Imperial Palace, but then they got 'lost'? How ??? You don't forget where you put cloning chambers like you forget where you put yer keys down, do you? And who did the cloning? The Emperor himself? Why?"

They WERE made on earth. The Emperor himself contributed genetic material, and probably was heavily involved in the process of cloning. There are hints that he may have bound energy from the warp into the primarchs. Why? If you are going to set out to reconquer the entire galaxy, you had better have some awesome generals to lead your troops! Also, creating them made it possible to create the Adeptus Astartes.

The infant primarchs, while still incubating in arcane machines were stolen from beneath the palace by Chaos. In a strange time-loop, Horus was there and unwittingly made the theft possible. (This was part of the strange stuff that happened too him on Davin while recovering.) The Chaos gods could not destroy the primarchs, so instead they were scattered throughout the galaxy. There is a hint that Horus may have accidentally killed one of the primarchs when they wre stolen. That might explain one of two missing primarchs/legions, but not the other.

"How may of the Primarchs survived after the Horus Hersey? Are they still around in the current edition of the game?"

No loyal primarchs are known to be still living. However, several are rumored to be waiting, somewhere, perhaps outside of time, and will return for the final battle with Chaos. Lion El'johnson, Leman Russ, Corax, Jaghetai Khan,and Vulcan all fall into this category.

Roboute Guilliman, Ferrus Manus, Sanguinius, and definitely dead. (Though it is said that Guilliman's wounds are slowly healing, even though he is in a stasis capsule!)

Early accounts state that Rogal Dorn is dead, and that his skeleton is in the possession of his chapter, the Imperial fists. But later ones say that although his ship was lost fighting a Chaos fleet, only his fist was ever found, not the rest of his body. So there is a tiny chance that he survived. My own chapter, the Hammerhands, believes this, but I think GW's canon Imperial Fist chapter and its descendants believe he is dead.

As for the primarchs who turned to chaos:
Horus himself is dead. Nighthaunter is dead, and apparently welcomed it. Alpharius is dead, but read the Horus Heresy book LEGION for more on that. Angron, Mortarion, Magnus the Rad, Lorgar, Perturabo, and Fulgrim all becam daemon princes. On top of that, Fulgrim was already possessed by a daemon before being elevated to princedom.

"They also say that the Astartes was with the Emperor during the Great Crusade, and that lasted over 200 years. How long does the Primarchs live for?"

Astartes can live for hundreds of years, the exact amount varies by chapter. The Primarchs seem to have been immortal. None ever died of old age. They either died in battle, or disappeard. The certainly live at least 1000 years, because that is when the last one was lost or killed.


"Who did the second founding of the sub-chapters?"

The Adeptus Mechanicus, at the direction of the High Lords of Terra, conducts additional foundings of Space Marines. There have been over 30 foundings so far. The Second founding was different, in that it involved breaking up the existing Legions into smaller Chapters of 1000 marines each. Thie was Robout Guilliman's idea, and was done according to his Codex Astartes.

"Is there a good fan site around that has the history all laid out?"

Check out Bolter & Chainsword for a forum dedicated to this kind of thing: bolterandchainsword.com

The Real Chris21 Nov 2008 10:48 a.m. PST

Well I think the HH series of books are pretty poor, and have a poor grasp of the epic battles (really most of the key ones are less impressive than Kursk and the like). Some of the newer ideas are bad even by GW standards – so the Emperors throne is really an access to the webway and so on which is why he spent his time there after leading the crusade personally for so long.

chronoglide21 Nov 2008 11:08 a.m. PST

Warlord…the 40K copulation sounds like a good read….can you get it on Amazon?…..

aecurtis Fezian21 Nov 2008 11:21 a.m. PST

"…the 40K copulation…"

Apt.

Allen

richarDISNEY21 Nov 2008 11:28 a.m. PST

WOW! Thanks Ivan and Warlord for the indepth lessons! That is exactly what I needed.

And those fan sites are great!

Thanks again for everybodys input!

Warlord21 Nov 2008 1:22 p.m. PST

Oh Lordy (I hate spell checkers sometimes)

Warhammer 40,000: Compilation – COMPILATION!

Aug!

Warlord21 Nov 2008 1:24 p.m. PST

@richarDMB

See what I mean by things changing though, the information I provided was from the old story line.

They have some good reading though… great fluff :)

Covert Walrus21 Nov 2008 1:25 p.m. PST

. . . An din all of this, no-one has mentioned The Ultimate Heresy/Blasphemy, which was *the* reason why Horus and his group did what they did to try to help the Emperor.

Well, since it *is* the Ultimate Naughty Thing :) that is probably wise, like not saying the 'H' word in Cthulhu games. Still, if you don't know it, less of the 40K universe makes sense….:)

Baconfat21 Nov 2008 11:25 p.m. PST

Horus is on the throne. The emperor is dead but will reincarnate.

Twisted Metal22 Nov 2008 12:31 p.m. PST

I've heard that idea before, that Horus is the one in the Golden Throne. Is it mentioned in one of the novels or something?

Ivan DBA22 Nov 2008 7:23 p.m. PST

No. That is not even a proper heresy, its just a silly joke thrown around on websites. I don't think there has ever been even the slightest hint of it in actual GW literature.

We know it is not possible, because the Golden Throne is actually a powerful psychic conduit. It (and the Astronomican) will not work unless there is a psyker connected to it. That is why the only person other than the Emperor to ever be enthroned was Malcador the Hero, who was supposedly the most powerful psyker ever, after the Emperor Himself. Horus was not a pysker at all.

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