"Gaming the RCW Black Army" Topic
18 Posts
All members in good standing are free to post here. Opinions expressed here are solely those of the posters, and have not been cleared with nor are they endorsed by The Miniatures Page.
Please be courteous toward your fellow TMP members.
For more information, see the TMP FAQ.
Back to the Interwar (WWI to WWII) Message Board
Areas of InterestWorld War One World War Two on the Land
Featured Hobby News Article
Featured Link
Top-Rated Ruleset
Featured Showcase Article
Featured Profile Article
Featured Book Review
Featured Movie Review
|
Please sign in to your membership account, or, if you are not yet a member, please sign up for your free membership account.
Aurelian | 21 Nov 2008 2:44 a.m. PST |
Hello, all. In my research on the RCW period, I've been really fascinated by this group, and was wondering if anybody would have advice on fielding them in an RCW game? I've got a general idea of their goals, political alignment, and such, but I haven't been able to get much on the specifics of Nestor's forces, except that they were apparently highly regarded for their cavalry. I have one source that claims they had at least seven armored trains and several armored cars at one point. Basically looking for suggestions. Uniforms? Slogans? Equipment? I was thinking that the Copplestone "Ragged Whites" would be a good start for the troops. Thanks! -A. |
mghFond | 21 Nov 2008 8:46 a.m. PST |
The Greens of Makhno didnt really have uniforms as such but many simply dressed in civilian clothing or war uniforms without epaulettes of the defunct Russian Czarist army. Sometimes they were also quite gaudy – one leader wore a hussars uniform and another a sailors uniform. Ive read somewhere too they liked bright scarves, sashes, etc. A safe banner might be skull and crossbones on black but I bet there are more knowledgeable experts on this list who can give you a lot more firm details. I used to game this period in the early 1990s and had painted up some Greens troops. You are right about the cavalry, they had a lot of them. |
bruntonboy | 21 Nov 2008 1:22 p.m. PST |
IIRC the hard-line Maknovites were essentially partisans and would resemble such- civilian clothing with a mix of captured or "liberated" uniform and equipment or whatever they had been wearing when the deserted to join Makhno. When Makhno was able to field large numbers of troops it was usually when he was joined by whole units of deserters so again they are likely to resemble such. However as Anarchists Makhno's men were famed for flamboyant dress and long hair. Flags mainly black with anarchist slogans- in Ukrainian of course rather than Russian. I have been tempted by this lot, was considering using (in 15mm) large numbers of Peter Pig's Cossacks, tatty partisans as a wild mix of almost everybody else. IIRC (And I might be vague here) Makhno also captured large quantities of stores from the French interventionists so it is "possible" some French gear ended up with him to. Hopefully others can say more and with more certainty! |
Mark Plant | 21 Nov 2008 2:51 p.m. PST |
An important feature of the Partisan armies was their ability to merge back into the civilian population when threatened. Otherwise one really concerted effort by a properly organised army would have wiped them out. That means no uniforms. By this period many ex-army peasants wore army surplus, so civilian dressed does not exclude some military stuff, but it does mean they did not dress the same. The lack of a secure base also meant that any captured artillery and vehicles could not be kept. They would be used once or twice, then abandoned. Hence there are correct stories of Makhno using trains, but it was far from common. Makhno's issue, like all the Greens, was that all supplies had to be captured. So he was basically forced into using the same rifles and MGs as his opponents. (Makhno did not capture many stores from the French. That would be Grigoriev, his main rival in early 1919. And most of those stores were German kit.) There have been a couple of discussions here and on the RCW Yahoo group about flags. One big trouble with gaming Makhno is that his men specialised in avoiding action. They were not into fighting regular armies unless they had to -- the excellence of his cavalry and daring use of tachankas not making up for the fact that a couple of defeats in a row would have spoiled the magic and led to rapid desertion of his force. Even the Battle of Peregonovka, his great victory, was a series of rapid actions spread over an enormous distance. He was at heart a raider and a partisan, not the leader of an field army. |
Area23 | 21 Nov 2008 3:16 p.m. PST |
Some scholars claim skull and crossbones are decidedly NOT Makhnovist. There's one famous picture of a huge banner with text and skull & bones. Apparently from an allied force, or another green or anarchist group. The Nestor Makhno Archives have pics: nestormakhno.info/images.htm They claimed to be the inventors of the Tachanka, before the bolsheviks used them. But many were farm carts, not modern coaches. The bigger battles were fought by many deserters from both red and white armies. Some (elected) officials dressed extravagantly. i've read about parody uniforms with many medals for instance. The hardcore of the army were cossacks. |
Mike O | 21 Nov 2008 3:46 p.m. PST |
Not this bunch of scummy peasants again ;~) TMP link |
Mark Plant | 21 Nov 2008 5:51 p.m. PST |
The hardcore of the army were cossacks. Errrr, no. Not as the term "Cossack" is usually understood. Generally the term covers those groups that had special rights and duties under the Tsarist system. Grouped into "Hosts" with Atamans they enjoyed privileges which mostly endeared them to the Whites. No Host is based inside the modern Ukraine, whereas Makhno was solidly pro-Ukrainian. Anarchy was usually directed by non-Cossacks at the wealth and land owned by the Cossacks. Although a few poorer ones went Red, the hardcore of the White armies were officers and Cossacks. But Ukraine had formerly been Cossack territory, and the Ukrainians have never entirely forgotten that. When the revolutions came, there were many self-defence units of "free Cossacks" organised. They had nothing at all to do with Cossacks proper. Politically they were mostly revolutionary, Socialist, Ukrainian nationalist and often Anarchist. Many of these then went on to be the core of the later Green and Black movements. Quite a few Ukrainians dressed up in uniforms looking back to the 17th and 18th Century free-booters (whereas real Cossacks wore either modern uniforms or Caucasian-style ones). The Ukrainian nationalist movement, then and now, has a fondness for archaic political terms too. Makhno therefore had an army with men who had been in these "free Cossack" units, but he was opposed to the actual Cossacks -- those of the Tsarist cavalry units. (If we are to call Makhno's men Cossacks, then the term would basically mean any person native to the Ukraine or Caucasus.) |
Aurelian | 21 Nov 2008 6:07 p.m. PST |
Some great information here, both in this thread, and the referenced one (Thanks, Durruti). One thing puzzles me, however. I've seen references here refering to the Mahknovists as "Greens"; however, the other sources I have make a clear distinction between the Greens and the Blacks. I believe one of the Ospreys I have even says that "the Greens themselves stood for nothing; they existed solely to kill for profit." Granted, it's an Osprey. So am I incorrect in my original belief, based upon initial readings, that Mahkno was not a "Green", but a "Black"? I'd even been lead to believe that the original core of his followers were veterans of the "Black Guards" anarchist groups formed in Moscow. -A. |
Mark Plant | 21 Nov 2008 8:49 p.m. PST |
"Black" is mostly a modern term for the Anarchists, at the time the non-aligned factions were "Greens". Makhno is thus both a Black and a Green. Most Greens favoured one party line more than the others. I would guess the bulk were Red, and some even flew red-and-green flags to show this. A few were White-leaning, especially Cossacks. In the Ukraine a large number were nationalist. Bear in mind that the first two RCW Ospreys were written by a Russian born and educated in the Soviet era. They have Soviet prejudices through-out, including some wildly inaccurate statements. The Soviets denied that any party not led by Lenin was even remotely politically acceptable. As part of that all non-Bolshevik groups became either "Whiteguards" or "Gangsters"/"Bandits", no matter how orthodox their Marxism or how revolutionary their aims. I personally loathe the politics of Makhno, but saying his army existed solely for profit is silly. They had a definite political stance, and acted on that. A side-effect was a lot of indiscriminate killing. |
Mike O | 22 Nov 2008 10:50 a.m. PST |
On the subject of Makhnovist flags, banners and slogans, I put my interpretations of a few on the RCW Yahoo site in the "photos" section. A couple of reputed unit flags still exist and the rest are based on eyewitness descriptions in books or articles (including the excellent Russian language article on the makhno.ru site) Some further notes and examples: С угнетенными против угнетателей всегда! The first black banner of the Gulya-Pole insurgents in 1917, as recalled by Makhno, had the slogan "With the Oppressed Against the Oppressors Always!" Mentioned as still being the main banner of the Makhnovists throughout the campaign. front: Свобода или Смерть reverse: Земля крестьянам, фабрики рабочим Voline states that a prominent, large flag flew at the head of the column in 1919, attached to a tachanka. The slogans; "Freedom or Death" on one side, "Land – to the Peasants, Factories – to the Workers" on the reverse. front: 2й // СВОДНЫЙ ПЕХ. ПОЛК // ПОВСТ. АРМИИ УКРАИНЫ // МАХНОВЦЕВ reverse: СМЕРТЬ // НАСИЛЬНИКАМ // ТРУДЯЩИХСЯ Much faded unit flag in the National Museum of Ukrainian History. "2nd Composite Infantry Regiment//Ukrainian Insurgent Army//Makhnovist". The slogan on the reverse is visible through the fabric; "DEATH // TO OPPRESSORS // OF WORKERS". front: 3й // ПЕХ. ПОЛК // ПОВСТ. АРМИИ // УКРАИНЫ МАХНОВЦЕВ reverse: A M (above skull, bones, scythe and spear imagery) Another reputed unit flag in a private collection (of "Doug D" from the Soviet Military Awards website). "3rd Infantry Regiment, Ukrainian Insurgent Army, Makhnovist". A M probably stands for АРМИИ МАХНОВЦЕВ (Makhnovist Army) front: 24-я Мариупольская кавгруппа украинск[их] повстанцев-махновцев reverse: Жить свободно или умереть! Based on a Bolshevik report of a unit flag captured in the Donbass area in April 1921. "24th Mariupol Cavalry-Group, Ukrainian Insurgents – Makhnovist". On the reverse; "To live free or to die! Штаб украинской махновской повстанческой армии Flag seen at the HQ in Gulya-Pole; "Staff of the Ukrainian Makhnovist Insurgent Army". front: страшна смерть буржуям reverse: веселе життя біднякам Used by an insurgent band from Aleksandrovsk district in October 1918; "Terrible Death to the Bourgeoisie", reverse ??? (Ukrainian?) Вечная память основателю свободы бате Кропоткину! A Bolshevik observer described several Makhnovist flag slogans in Autumn 1920 including this one; "Eternal Memory to the Founder of Freedom baht (?) Kropotkin" Peter Kropotkin was still alive at this time so doubts have been raised on the accuracy. Смерть буржуям и их капиталу! According to witnesses, some insurgent detachments that accepted orders from the Makhnovist staff in the loose organisation chose red flags. In the Makhnovist Berdyansk district in autumn 1918: '
rushed past a tachanka bearing the red flag, on which it was written in uneven letters: "Death to bourgeois and their capital!"'. 1-й кавалерийский полк им. Батьки Махно 2-й кавалерийский полк им. Батьки Махно 1-й сабельные эскадроны 2-й сабельные эскадроны 3-й сабельные эскадроны 4-й пулеметный эскадрон Stranger still, when the Makhnovists joined with the Bolsheviks in Feb. 1919 and became the 3rd Trans-Dnepr Brigade an artist was commissioned to produce red unit flags ; "From Berdyansk district appeared representatives of the Makhnovist staff. The purpose of the visit : "It was necessary to write in gold
on dark red banners texts with the names of regiments and squadrons: the 1st cavalry regiment of Batko Makhno, the 2nd cavalry regiment of Batko Makhno, the 1st, the 2nd, the 3rd Sabre Squadrons and the 4th Machine-Gun Squadron. Each banner made in two copies". РСФСР An unusual flag, with mixed symbology, based on another Bolshevik report of a Makhnovist unit in Mikhaylovka – Varvarovka region, Feb. 1921. "
a band of about 50 sabres with 4 machine guns bearing a red flag with the image of star, skull and letters "RSFSR". Other slogans found on flags and banners according to eyewitnesses: ШТАБ // Рев. повстанцев // Искателей в партиях // правды // Отр.Каменева black flag of the Makhnovist Staff Анархия, вперед! "anarchy,forward!" on black flag Мы власть не устанавливаем, пусть народ ее установит "We do not establish authority, let the people establish it" red flag of a band of 200 sabres and 6 machine guns in Yuzovskiy district, May 1921 Голодная Украинская Трудовая армия "Hungry Ukrainian Worker's army" red flag Власть рождает паразитов. Да здравствует анархия! "Authority gives birth to parasites. Long live anarchy! " – black banner Мир хижинам, война дворцам "Peace to cabins, War to palaces" – black banner, Gulya Pole, Jan 1919 Да здравствует анархия! // Смерть законам! "Long live anarchy! // Death to laws!" – black cavalry standard Долой деньги // да процветает свободный обмен "Down with money // Long live free exchange" – black cavalry standard Бей сегодня Врангеля, завтра — совдепы! "Beat today Wrangel, tomorrow – sovdepy" (the soviets?) – black cavalry standard «Освободителю украинских крестьян батьке Махно — слава!» "To the liberator of Ukrainian peasants, to father Makhno – glory! " – black cavalry standard Вся землякрестьянам. Коммунистам — по три метра "All land to peasants. To Communists – on three metres"(???) – black cavalry standard Mike |
Area23 | 22 Nov 2008 1:48 p.m. PST |
"(If we are to call Makhno's men Cossacks, then the term would basically mean any person native to the Ukraine or Caucasus.)" Reading Voline, Arshinov and Makno, I always had the impression their use of Cossack referred to ethnicity. The 'blacks' did refer to black flags though. I think anarchists before the russian revolution used either black or red flags. "I'd even been lead to believe that the original core of his followers were veterans of the "Black Guards" anarchist groups formed in Moscow." Quite a few more active members of the russian anarchist movement were involved in education programs in the ukraine, if you are to believe Voline. Moscow anarchists were accused of being undecided and weak by other comrades and as antirevolutionary by the the bolsheviks. Hundreds of them were jailed by the reds during the civil war, if I remember well. |
Aurelian | 22 Nov 2008 2:22 p.m. PST |
Awesome info gents, thank you. You've given me m ore than enough to work with. I am thinking about beginning to field them for a couple different systems, but one of them would be "Contemptible Little Armies". I realize that they really don't, as such, belong in the "Back of Beyond", but since that is largely a fantasy setting, one could assume that hard line supporters of the Makhnovist movement fled East, yes?;) Far to the East
At any rate, I wonder whether basing them upon the Red Army or White Army lists would be more appropriate, as there is no Green or Black list in CLA. I would think Bolshevist, but there is the problem of Commissars – my reading has indicated that this sort of thing would not have been tolerated. Any thoughts? Again, I realize this is wildly fantastical on my part, but allows me to field them in slightly larger numbers (and I intend to use them for more historical stuff, anyway). -A. |
Mark Plant | 22 Nov 2008 3:39 p.m. PST |
but there is the problem of Commissars They are a largely imaginary group anyway. During the RCW the Soviets did not have enough dedicated Communists to go placing them down to low levels. Divisions had RevComs and Regimental staffs might, but the idea of companies with Commissars is taken from WWII. And they were not operational commanders at the period anyway -- they were forbidden from doing so in fact. Write your own list. It will be at least as accurate as the current CLA ones. Reading Voline, Arshinov and Makno, I always had the impression their use of Cossack referred to ethnicity. They are. They mean Ukrainian ethnicity. But that is different from what the term means in English. The three were writing Anarchist polemics, not history, and the appeal to the old Ukrainian idea of free men ruling themselves -- as the Ukrainian Cossacks had done -- was a vital part of that. The Zaporozhian Cossacks had been liquidated in 1775, although some survived in Turkish service and others went to the Kuban. Look at where Gulyay-Pole (Makhno's main recruiting area) and look where the closest 1918 Cossack Host is. It's the Don, some 200 km away. If you want to call them "Cossacks" fine, but be aware that this does not mean that they were raised as horsemen, trained from birth to serve in the cavalry. Nor will it mean what other people use the term to mean. Makhno's men were, except when incorporating deserters, entirely Ukrainian peasants. |
Mike O | 23 Nov 2008 6:24 p.m. PST |
Quote: "I personally loathe the politics of Makhno, but saying his army existed solely for profit is silly. They had a definite political stance, and acted on that. A side-effect was a lot of indiscriminate killing." Well, again, it's difficult to separate politics from the military when it comes to a subject like the Makhnovists but I don't really want to get into that too much here. The only time I allowed myself to "bite" was on an SCW topic when I responded to someone attacking the anarcho-syndicalists by pointing out that the right-wing organisation he was painting as victims were, "IMHO" nasty low-life scum. Got 8 stifles for that one post – no loss to me. The sort of people that spout their propaganda then clap their hands to their ears and sing "na na, can't hear you!" and tell tales to "teacher" when someone offers an opposite view for debate are utterly pathetic in my opinion. But on the subject of "indiscriminate killing" I have to ask; exactly which faction in the RCW *didn't* commit great violence? It was a savage war and I don't think it's possible to project 21st century "cosy-world" values on that time and place. A place where the lid had just blown off a pressure cooker. White Terror, Red Terror, the almost routine pogroms against the jews committed by both main sides (the Red 1st Horse Army amongst the guilty) as well as Green freebooters like Grigoriev and Zelenyi and Ukrainian Nationalists under Skoropadsky and Petylura . Interventionist atrocities too. link The Makhnovists were certainly no angels. How was the movement defined in military terms? By the staff unit that issued orders and the units that agreed to accept them. This loose organisation meant a constant flux in numbers and committment. As well as committed anarchists and peasants, former reds, greens and even whites ended up in their ranks at times. Harsh penalties were issued by the staff against those guilty of anti-semitism. Drunkeness was certainly a problem leading to a debate that took measures to deal with it: "Let us also note that at the Alexandrovsk congress a stringent resolution was passed on the question of drunkenness: Any who thus weakened or contributed to the decomposition of the army of the proletariat now risked the firing squad. By contrast the Bolshevik militant Konyevets testifies that he had heard Makhno arrange with the head of the insurgent army's intelligence branch, Lev Zadonsky-Zinkovskyto have 30 barrels of alcohol (pure alcohol) supplied to Shkuro's Cossacks for the obvious reason of sapping their fighting spirit." (Skirda, 2004, Nestor Makhno; Anarchy's Cossack, p157) Guilty of chemical warfare as charged
In "military operations the Bolsheviks shot all prisoners. The Makhnovists shot all captured officers unless the Red rank and file strongly interceded for them. The rank and file were usually sent home, though a number volunteered for service with the Insurgents." Equally, "[o]n the occupation of a village by the Red Army the Cheka would hunt out and hang all active Makhnovite supporters
" [David Footman The Russian Civil War., pp. 292-3] "[White General Denikin] imposed a regime marked by a vicious hatred of the Jews. As the pogroms of 1919 burst upon the Jews of the Ukraine with incredible ferocity, the enemies of Bolshevism committed some of the most brutal acts of persecution in the history of the Western world
.. Estimates of the numbers killed ran as high as one Jew out of every thirteen. Hundreds of thousands were left homeless, and tens of thousands became victims of serious illness and disease
..No longer spontaneous outpourings of racial and religious hatred, pogroms became coldly calculated incidents of wholesale rape, extreme brutality and unprecedented destruction. In a single day at the end of August in the Jewish settlement of Kremenchug, the Whites raped 350 women, including pregnant women, women who had just given birth and even women who were dying."[ W. Bruce Lincoln – Red Victory: A History of the Russian Civil War] "Colonel C. H. Morrow, the commander of the 27th Infantry Regiment, heard reports that Generals Semenov and Kalmykov were indiscriminately killing people up and down the railway line. He dispatched investigation teams to determine the validity of persistent rumors and reports that it was the Cossacks committing the atrocities. One team's investigation near the village of Bobinka collected considerable evidence that one of Semenov's commanders, General Levitsky had gone on a bloody rampage. In his report lieutenant E. Davis wrote that there were "a dozen corpses with their hands cut off lying in a heap." He went on to describe that many showed that they had been burned while still alive. None of the numerous saber cuts on all the bodies "proved to be immediately fatal." One of the bloodiest raids took place in the spring of 1919
.
This is not to say that only the White forces were committing atrocities. Professor John Stephen explains in The Russian Far East, White atrocities were more visible to American forces and because the victors write the history books. Red Russian atrocities were purged from the records. Even the allied forces are not free from the charge of atrocities. The Japanese were observed arresting five Russians without cause, marching them to a shallow grave site, and ceremonially decapitating them with his sword. On one occasion they leveled an undefended village using artillery. There are unconfirmed reports from the Soviets that American forces committed numerous brutal raids, leveling several villages, tortured and murdered pregnant women, and beat newspaper editors. While the Soviet report, published in 1945, may have been purely for political purposes there is at least some evidence that American forces attacked non-combatants near Kazanka in revenge for an attack near the village of Romanovka on the Trans-Siberian railway where several hundred Americans from the 31st Infantry were killed or injured." link |
Mark Plant | 23 Nov 2008 8:23 p.m. PST |
No issues here Durriti, with most armies of the RCW being poorly behaved, both on and off the battlefield. The ones that were reasonably well behaved tended to be the nationalist factions. (I don't count shooting prisoners, incidentally, since this was common practice due to any ability to imprison them, though far from universal. The Bolsheviks didn't normally do it, despite that quote from Footman.) My experience is that a lot of Anarchist-fellow travellers somehow have the impression that the Makhnovists were above that. If you read Voline and Arshinov, and believe they are writing history, then you have no idea of the atrocities commited. My reading suggests that they were if anything worse than most, being as anti-Semitic as the Whites, as anti-bourgeouis as the Reds and less disciplined than either. (Though Makhno himself wasn't anti-Semitic.) "A Russian Dance of Death" suggests what being occupied by Makhnovist forces was like. There were worse: Semenov and Kalmykov most definitely. |
Mike O | 24 Nov 2008 12:28 p.m. PST |
Fair enough, I accept Voline and Arshinov aren't objective historians, in fact just useful for the odd snippet for the gamer. And I agree Makhno's boys have serious failings that were too often glossed over by anarchists. In particular self-discipline and an inability to secure territory and defend captured cities or engage with the inhabitants of the latter. Part of the "problem" might have been that they refused to seek authority over the cities; rather they hoped the workers would organise themselves. Bit dangerous in the midst of a civil war by conventional military thinking perhaps. I'm sure many inhabitants saw his force as a drunken gangster mob too, particularly the better off. Many (even supposedly-disciplined) armies in history have gone on a wild rampage after a hard-fought city capture. But I have a hard time seeing the core movement as in any way anti-semitic. It contained a number of leading Jews, including Voline, plus whole Jewish units such as an artillery battery. When Grigoriev made his fateful visit to the Makhnovist HQ he reputedly asked if there were any Jews present. When told there were he suggested they be beaten up – it didn't happen! Proclamations condemning anti-semitism were repeatedly made by the staff and the penalty was summary execution. On one occasion an insurgent was shot for displaying a hand-written poster bearing the legend 'Death to Jews, Save the Revolution, Long Live Batko Makhno.' Voline does make the comment; "Rich and reactionary Jews certainly did suffer from the Makhnovist army, not as Jews, but just in the same way as non-Jewish counter-revolutionaries
" which is a veiled admission that the movement had a terrifying side. By the same token Mennonite landowners undoubtedly suffered badly from both the reds and the blacks (as per "A Russian Dance of Death" ) although they were hardly neutral, having supported the German and Austro-Hungarian invaders plus the Hetmanate. Their "Selbstschutz" units were armed first by the Germans then by Whites and regarded as their allies. Many of their crops were burned to deny them to the White advance. Finally it's telling that the "Crimes and Mass Violence of the Russian Civil Wars (1918-1921)" article I linked above has a section on pogroms and mass crimes in Ukraine with no mention of the Makhnovists at all. Plenty of the UPR, Grigoriev, Zelenyi, White units and the Konarmiya though: link Doesn't seem to be pushing any political agenda either. Have to say my personal opinion currently is that the Makhnovists, bad as they could be, were, at the very least, no worse than any of the aforementioned. Mike |
Mark Plant | 24 Nov 2008 9:34 p.m. PST |
Fair enough Mike, though being better than Grigoriev and Zelenyi isn't much of an achievement! The Konarmiya is an interesting comparison. The leadership made it very, very clear that anti-Semitism wasn't on, and were quite prepared to shoot people who disobeyed. But the troops on the ground didn't pay much attention, and the pogroms persisted. |
Area23 | 25 Nov 2008 3:53 p.m. PST |
Great info guys! Thanks. Next year I need to buy more books!:) Makhnovists are adored by many anarchists because they are one of the very few examples of anarchist military, for better or for worse, their image is very romantic (like pirates, highwaymen or Zorro) and they stood up against the bolshies from the beginning! Bloody and dreadful the civil war was, no doubt about it. |
|