"advantages of 15mm over 28mm?" Topic

Is there a particular advantage to using 15mm over 28mm for napoleonic wargaming? (Aside from price as there is not a significant enough a difference for me to use 15mm esp. given the arrival of the 28mm plastics.)

Also, I mean for non-skirmish gaming.

Many people think that the massed look can be better achieved with 15mm, given the same playing surface available. Your table size may affect your decision. Basing of friends' armies so you can play together may be a factor. Also, terrain owned/needed comes into play. You may get many opinions here as to which is "best."

Footprint.

Allen

Larger forces on a smaller table size is a main advantage to 15mm. A great painter might rather show their skills more with 28mm.

Footprint. You can have realistic maneuvering and spacing in a relatively small space if you use 15's.

My nightmare memories of early Napo wargaming in the 70's involves a table crammed end to end with units and figures, placed base to base waddling forward because there was no room to do anything else.

Great for some Eighteenth Century scenarios. Not that spectacular for Napos.

I love both, but there are some solid arguments to be made for 15mm.

1. Cost of storage and transport. 28mm figures can be very big, especially considering flagpoles and mounted troopers with raised swords, etc. You will need a lot of vertical storage space.

2. The plastics aren't the end-all and be-all. Remember that for your army, you're going to need things that most likely will never be made in plastics: artillery, gunners, limbers, generals, and various kinds of elite units and cavalry that will probably never be available in boxed kits. I may be wrong about this one day, but it seems to be that the plastics only handle the most common rank-n-file type of troops. So the rest of the army will get very expensive in 28mm. (Do a price-check on one artillery limber, and note a) how big it is; b) how much it costs.)

3. Availability is still an issue with 28mm. I find this amazing, given how long they've been around, but to this day, you still can't get certain armies in that scale. For example: nobody makes a complete line of Prussians (!?!) either for late-war or early-war, in 28mm. In the late-war uniforms you can't get grenadiers, guards, or cuirassiers. (Yes, I know, Foundry supposedly has some leftover, and will sell them to you if you call after tea-time on the third Thursday of September and know the secret password.)

Nobody makes late-war German minor allies like Saxony, Westphalia, or the Confederation states. Nobody makes Danes or Swedes. Other nationalities remain incomplete, like the Turks, Portuguese, Württembergers (available in early-war uniform only), Poles, Dutch, Spaniards, etc. And the early-war and revolutionary-era armies are pretty hard to put together, too. If you want Italians, you'll need to use the French figures. And – here is another amazing one – it's very hard to find the French Young Guards in 28mm. Foundry, again, allegedly has some, in campaign dress (where the uniform details don't matter anyway), and Old Glory has a pack, but they're wretched castings.

By contrast, there is an embarrassment of riches in 15mm. Every imaginable nationality and figure type is available, many times over. Hell, you can even get Tyrolean rebels!

4. Scale becomes an issue in 28mm, with regard to figure depth. Consider how much space you need to field an artillery battery, for instance. Most wargames are based upon unit frontage, and the deeper you get, the more it throws things out of whack. (For instance, if you have a shooting range or a charge range of, say, 8", and you want to shoot or charge some unit that is behind an artillery piece… If the artillery's base is four inches deep (and it probably is), then that's half your range right there!) Take it from somebody who has done hundreds of games in 28mm: the scales are badly distorted unless you're playing a very petite-tactical game.

Anyway, if none of those things bother you, then by all means go ahead and do 28mm. There are some beautiful figures out there, and the flags are to do die for.

15s are cuter.

in a straight match a 28mm will kick the ass of a 15…

Don and Brandlin – very funny :)

Soup to Nuts – excellent points and the reason I am having such a hard time making a decision. The issue of availability is a good point and probably going to be key. Although I am starting out Brit and French, if I like Napoleonics, I'll eventually want other forces as well.

huevans – good point regarding footprint.

My plan, at this point, is to play games with 6-8 battalions of infantry per side, with the occasional cavalry or artillery unit thrown in. I see my games as being partial OOB's to represent areas of a battle rather than a whole battle.

Make sense? and, at that level of play, would 28mm work?

decisions … decisions. I suppose I could go with both, but not sure if I want to duplicate armies in two different scales.

or maybe keep 28mm for skirmish level and go 15mm for other scales. sorry, thinking aloud now, as it were.

"I see my games as being partial OOB's to represent areas of a battle rather than a whole battle.

Make sense?"

Nope. Never met a Napoleonic gamer with the discipline to stop there. Megalomania sets in, and you're lost.

Start from the permise that collecting, say, the armies of all nations in 1815, is just the beginning. Then the enormity of what you've done will not creep up on you.

Allen

15mm are more forgiving of my mediocre painting skills.

Hi dr sid.

You already know I am a 28mm man but it's a tough one. Napoleonics is a period where 15mm does make a lot of sense.

Do both. You won't be alone….

Allen, I will ahve you know I only own 1 box of rusians and not a swede in site, so I hardly have all the armys. And only one Ottoman unit, and not very many Spanish either, so I am only really collecting French British Prussian and Austrian. That is not really all that many now is it? Oh and the Americans and a bunch of American indians. Not a single asian Indian in the bunch. See how much restraint I have?

badger – got something against us asian indians … I mean really now? what's a miniature collectin without turbans?!

James – yeah. I see myself going both routes. *sigh* I really had told myself I was going to be good with historical stuff given how much GW plastic and metal I have already. The 28mm look sooooo cool, but as Aecurtis says, I know I'll end up wanting more. and, whats really sad …

I'm even starting to eye some of that SYW stuff. I wish there was some way to turn off those damn ad banners. I click on them way too much!

Footprint Cost and Storage are the advantages.

25mm allows you to really show off the uniforms of the period.

mjc

The comment was made about showcasing your painting skills with large figures, which is true. But many of the 15s (going on 18s) have enough detail to excel as well IMHO.

Yeah, footprint, cost, storage, painting skills. I am a big 15mm fan. 28mm is too big for me.

Cheers,

The Bandit

Yes, it has to be 15's
1. The mass effect I can achieve on my 6 x 4 table
2. Cost
3. Range of figure availability
4. Storage

I gave up counting my 15's (all periods) when I reached 10K.

One of the things I find surprising about our hobby is that it appeals to nearly everyone in a different way. Personally the aesthetic value of 28's outweighs all of the very valid arguments for 15's. I would rather play a game with twenty 28mm battalions a side than a 15mm game with 50 battalions a side.

garagegamer.blogspot.com

Earlier period battles can be much smaller than later battles, Maida, for example link Happily achieved with 28mm.

Auerstadt, Happily acheived with 15mm.
link link

These examples assume you will prefer gaming with individual inf battalions, cav regiments and arty batteries (as I do). Also, I'm not trying to push the early period on you, just using it to represent that different figure sizes suit some battles and not others. don't fall into the trap of doing say Borodino in 28mm.

I have 25mm figures for a Quatre Bras project, never completed and a waist of years. Stupid and costly error in judgement even at Corp size. Not to mention the space needed. Doable in 15mm, a doddle in 10mm or 6mm.

15s are:

cheaper
easier to store
easier to transport
look good en masse
and most important…. much quicker to paint.

Same arguments apply to an even greater degree to 6mm, which is why all my nineteenth century armies are 6mm (apart from Colonials).

All that has been told is correct, I also prefer 15mm over 28mm for napoleonic battles for space for maneouver (28mm big armies leave very little space for maneouver), armies look, and a little cheaper.

But the 28mm also has its advantages:

- Very nice looking once painted (with an acceptable level of painting).
- Much better for skirmishing wargames where you use personalities.
- When you grow older it's easier to paint 28mm figures than 15mm.

"Nobody makes late-war German minor allies like Saxony, Westphalia,
or the Confederation states
Nobody makes Danes or Swedes. Other nationalities remain incomplete, like the Turks, Portuguese, Württembergers (available in early-war uniform only), Poles, Dutch, Spaniards, etc. And the early-war and revolutionary-era armies are pretty hard to put together, too. If you want Italians, you'll need to use the French figures. And – here is another amazing one – it's very hard to find the French Young Guards in 28mm. Foundry, again, allegedly has some, in campaign dress (where the uniform details don't matter anyway), and Old Glory has a pack, but they're wretched castings."

Saxony= Elite and connoisseur
Westphalia = Elite
Swedes= connoisseur
Portuguese,= Connoisseur
Late Wurtemburg = Connoisseur, Firing Line (Early and late)
Poles, Dutch, Spaiiards= Connoisseur
Young Guard= Elie, Connoiseur, Bicorne, Old Glory
Turks (who cares?)

Really depends on whether you like Skirmish, Tactical or Grand Tactical

I like Grand Tactical and most of my Nappys are 6mm, with the little devils packed onto the bases – so a typical Austrian brigade has 90 – 135 figures

However, I also have a couple of 24-figure battalions in 28 mm, mostly because I like painting them – if the guys in the group take up the new plastics, there may be the opportunity to actually game with them

Pretty much all of the Nappy fans in the group use 6 mm, but of the clubs in the area most use 15mm

And thats how it starts.

As I have nothing against Indians, I shall now have to start an army to show drsid20 that I really am an equal opertunety collecter. Finding some in 1/72 may be tough, but I shall conquer in the end.

Interesting. You fella's haven't made the decision any easier, but at least I know have some criteria to think about.

Thank you very much for the thoughts and info.

Christot:

Conoisseur figures haven't been available for most people for years, and no new ones have been made in a decade. (Bicorne was supposedly distributing them as of 2001, but they, too, are pretty far out of the mainstream, availability-wise, not to mention in terms of size and quality.)

The Elite Westphalians were just announced earlier this year, and apparently are only some line infantry figures.

You forgot Front Rank Portuguese.

I've never heard of "Firing Line" miniatures.

Anyway, there are others we could have mentioned: Imperialist Enterprises, for instance, makes about half of the figures one would need for an 1806 Prussian army.

A LOT of manufactures make (or once made) -SOME- of the figures for all these armies.

But very few make ALL of the figures for these armies, even when you combine them.

That was my point. Compared to 15mm, availability is much trickier.

Go on the Bicorne website,

bicorne.net/catalog

All the Connoisuer stuff is there as is Firing Line (small range of brilliant figures, apart from the single figure they have pictured, which is absolutely awful)
Firing line also do a fabulous range of seperate heads which allow you to convert just about anything if you are so inclined + a lovely range of horses without saddles

Just click on the figures and buy them….I believe its called online ordering

I also forgot Front Rank Spanish and Elite Poles

The beauty of most of the Elite and connoiseur stuff is its perfectly easy to use it for other stuff.
A lot of their officers are guys in bicornes with a sash…you can use them for anything.
Need a Westphalian Hussar or Italian Dragoon? Use a French one. Can you honestly tell me you need someone to produce a specific figure for you? I suspect manufacturers take the same line, which is why they don't produce Italian dragoons…they rightly assume a gamer will have the were-withal to work out the uniform is identical, and that a bit of inteligent paintwork on a shako plate does the job.
If you need that amount of spoonfeeding then fair enough.
As for quality, they are still better figures and look a whole lot better in big units, (which is what they were originally designed for) than the stumpy little no-neck Foundry offerings.

More than twenty five years ago a wargamer told me that, while he liked my 15mm Napoloeonic armies, he thought it was very much a 'compromise scale'. I didn't want to agree with him at the time, but I see his point more and more.

All the space/mass appeal advantages of 15mms over 28mms are much heightened in 6mm and 10mms. All the visual advantages of 15mm over smaller figures are increased with 28mms and up.

15mm Napoleonics and C18th are a pain to paint. You can see the detail, but don't have the space to paint it well very easily. I'd much rather do either larger figures and paint the detail well, or smaller ones and ignore it.

That's not nearly so true in, say, dark ages, WWII or colonials.

I have very large Peninsular War armies in 15mm, but I haven't added to them in 15 years or so. If I were to start the era all over, I'd do 6mm army scale and 28mm skirmish.

And there's always MiniFigs, in 15 and 25…good range, perhaps slightly 'old' looking figures though…
Some people advise sticking to one scale..I've done mass 15mm, changed to 25's, 6's, now strictly stick to massed 10mm only (Old Glory..there's also Pendraken)..though I've just started some DBN stuff..in AB 18mm..As someone said above, once you start, there is no hope.. :-)

I agree with Mexican Jack, with the exception that I would use 10mm. I have largely abandoned 15mm, despite having 1000s for various periods. I now either build 28mm or 10mm. The larger figures offer a spectacle of detail, while the smaller figures offer the spectacle of mass.

No matter which you choose, you will probably end up filling your table from end to end with figures.

Rob

Mexican Jack – very good points. And, of course, now I have another scale to start considering. You do realize your making this harder rather than easier.

All of this also depends on how much table space you have; how much storage space you have; how much money and time you have; and what kind of rules you like.

Some rules are targeted for specific scales, and the vast majority of people who play those rules play them in that scale: Empire, Naps Battles and Nap F&F in 15mm; or Polemos in 6mm.

With other rules it doesn't matter as much: Volley & Bayonet, Grande Armee, Shako, etc.

>"When you grow older it's easier to paint 28mm figures than 15mm."<

By that line of reasoning I should be painting houses! or maybe barns!