"Aircraft in the Rif Wars" Topic

Just got the excellent Wargamers guide to the Rif Wars from Richard Baber, and found out that I could use several 1/48th scale WWI aircraft for the Spanish.

Alas no Breguet XIX, but they also used BR XIVs, Bristol F2s and the DH 4 and DH 9a.
However it also dawned on me that I have absolutely no idea what colour schemes these aircraft were painted in.

The only picture I found is of a Spanish DH4 and again no idea what date is was taken or in which theatre.
picture

The Spanish Airforce site isn't much help either since it only seems concerned with post 1939 things.

WillieB, re colour schemes, you have to careful trying to work out the colours from these B&B photos, as the films they used weren't panchromatic; they were more or less sensitive to certain colours. So that roundel for example, might be 3 quite light colours, but the film doesn't pick them up.

Well I use a yellow (sand) base with brown wavey camo and blue undersides. Big red and yellow roundels on the wings and red/yellow striped tail.

I admnit I cheet and use Spad XIII bi-planes for most actions in our games anyway.

That's a Bristol Fighter :O)

I'd go with whatever looks right. I would imagine that most aircraft would be in CDL or perhaps light gray / white, but as there is little evidence either way, I'd base the schemes on the closest you can find i.e. interwar Spanish or Early Civil War. There are both of these categories over at the Wings Palette site:

link

There's a Potez XV here c1924 in Morocco:

wp.scn.ru/en/ww15/o/725/173/0/1

boggler – nice link, thanks ;)

Drat! of course it's a Brisfit. I'll go wash my mouth with soap now.

Really good find that Potez. At least we're pretty sure of the tail markings now.

Do you have to be a member to view aircraft profiles at Wings Pallette?
I can select Europe- Bombers etc and then get a list of available illustrations? but when I click these that's it.

Found it!
Definitely need new glasses. Or a brain…

here is a good research question for you all.when I researched the rif era for the designs of my french forien legion line (for Iron brigade miniatures) I found that Abdul El Krim ldr of the rifs had 2 airplanes to assist him flown by mercs,but never could find what kind they were.I'm assuming they may have been german as germany assisted with artillery hvmg's and 10,000 rifles plus grenades and advisors to teach them.its been 30 yrs since I did that and really would like to know.

Abd el Krim owned just one plane a Potez 15 (sometimes also described as an old WWI era Breguet too) brought overland from Algeria, bought from a French company. He also had two French cars (sinilarly purchased). The French also sold him telephone equipment including a complete exchange system and supplied an engineer to train El Krim`s staff.

A Russians sent artillery Colonel Sergi Kugushev to train El Krim`s gunners. and he employed Swiss, Austrian and Dutch "specialists" – Doctors, mechanics, engineers.

Any German help was purely mercenary (Joseph Klems), The Spanish and later the French made huge claims of "foreign" help for the Riffians but most writers with access to the Riffian side (a couple of Americans and an Englishman that I`ve read) saw no evidence of major outside help. I`ve read no reports of the Riffi buying cannon – they captured nearly 200 off the Spanish!!! As for buying rifles and grenades, British gun runners sold them stuff too…..

Of course French and German military engineers supplied the Spanish with poison gas and the means the make and deliver it too.

If you want further info I think you should buy my Rif War Guide, available through TooFatLardies.com

It'd very good too!

Got mine after reading this post and am very pleased with the level of depth and background detail, not to mention the excellent scenarios and advice for prospective gamers.

Thanks for the inspiration Richard!

thats great info….it wasnt avaiable 30 years ago or I just couldnt find back then. what I had found did state that it was the germans who supplied alot of his equiptment plus that that was captured from the spanish. this makes some of the books I have very incorrect,what a bummer.

German agents tried to stir up trouble for the French during WW1 by offering bribes to the northern (more warlike) tribes, in the most part this came to nothing.

Like I said both the Spanish and the French tried to blame/credit the Riffi successes on "foreign" intervention. Most modern writers and at least the three period adventurers/newspaper men seem to discredit these claims.

The Riffi were not "savages" some were highly educated and widely travelled. Muslim schooling of the period was far superior to that given to a lot of Europeans.

It purerly perspective of course. Spanish and French writers give less credit to the natives, and refer to them as savages, barbarians, thieves, etc…….

Muslim schooling of the period was far superior to that given to a lot of Europeans

Including women ?
One of my friend is a Morroccan jew who was born in
Morrocco in the 1940's, his father went to French school in Morroco (Casablanca), not sure he would agree with you Richard
Coranic shools taugth BOYS in basic skills (reading, writting, computing) and could be as good for this as any elementary schools in Europe indeed (sciences teaching notwithstanding).
My father, while a soldier in Kabily (1958-1960) met a native woman there, and they lived together for a few years when back in France.
Women education was non-existent in the North African traditional world, few girls who could read had learned in French schools.

It purerly perspective of course. Spanish and French writers give less credit to the natives, and refer to them as savages, barbarians, thieves

A perspective shared by many 'lowlands' Morrocans Arabs who had suffered from Berber tribes raids long before the French came.
FWIW, I guess it's worth not going from one caricature to an other, for sake of debunking the first one.

The fact that girls were not taught in Muslim schools is not relevent to the historic arguement, this is semantics and politics and irrelevent to the "wargaming" discussion we were having. Lets not forget over 70% of the Spanish peasant conscripts were illiterate too…..

The Moroccans, Algerian and Tunisians have nothing nice to say about their period as French colonies, I`ve been fortunate to spend time in all three countries and have had discussions on this very topic. Education for the natives by the French was poor to non-existant – I forget the actual figures but in Tunisia in 1940 only some 10-15% of Tunisians could read and write (under the French system). By 1980 this had risen to 80% – now under their own government. By 2004 all children attended school until 12yrs, the Tunisian history proffessor I was talking to at the Bardo Museum in Tunis was less than complimentory about the French…..

The lowland Arabs indeed suffered Berber incurions throughout history, the strong pick on the weak – it was the way of the world (and still is). I have never said the Berbers were "good guys".

I was just putting forward the defence that the colonial powers made up excuses as to why a "primative" native army defeated them in battles.

Abd el Krim as an example spoke several Berber dialects, Spanish, Arabic and quite good French and a little English – this puts him in a educational bracket far higher than myself……

Has Roden already released their DH9a?