"Prussians at Waterloo and the Waterloo Despatch" Topic

Dear All,

At the risk of repeating myself, I think it would be timely to provide all with an excerpt from the Waterloo Despatch concerning the contribution made by Marshal Blucher and the Prussians to the allied Victory at Waterloo.

Frequently the 'Tall Poppy Brigade' and Lord W's naysayers go to great lengths to claim that the Iron Duke attempted to either ignore or downplay the debt he owed to Prussian intervention, even going so far as to attribute quibbling over the omission of Prussians from a scale model of a battle designed to show the position of the British army in the Battle, as some sort of attempt to rewrite history.

The Waterloo despatch represents the traditional and official first account of a Battle, tendered by the CinC and addressed to his sovereign. As such, it those days of poor communications, it would assume a gravity and authority difficult to imagine today. As Lord W penned it he might well have believed, unable to imagine the jealous sniping of modern revisonist historians, that what he wrote would go unchalleneged. Please find the time to read below the actual facts of the case as witten by Lord W the very next day, as to how he felt about the Prussian contribution:

'I should not do justice to my own feelings, or to Marshal Blücher and the Prussian army, if I did not attribute the successful result of this arduous day to the cordial and timely assistance I received from them.

The operation of General Bülow upon the enemy's flank was a most decisive one; and, even if I had not found myself in a situation to make the attack which produced the final result, it would have forced the enemy to retire if his attacks should have failed, and would have prevented him from taking advantage of them if they should unfortunately have succeeded'

why, does this relate to some sort of controversy I am not aware of?

Pat

There weren't any Prussians at Waterloo. Their alleged presence in an invention of Siborne's.

Why timely ?

I always thought of Waterloo as a great British victory, won by English soldiers all on their very own – my one learns something new every day!

Tally Ho!

Again with this ?

And no mention of the Dutch,Belgians, Hanoverians, Scots, Welsh and Irish.

Dualer,
He was talking about a completely different army from his own, of course.

There was no Battle of Waterloo – it was a power discourse amongst a European elite waged in a pre-digital non-euclidian space (wasn't it?)

It was most kind of W to acknowledge the Prussians were there…………

eventually………..

after W had won the day………..

and, even if I had not found myself in a situation to make the attack which produced the final result,

1, Why could he make the gesture of an attack?

Because the Prussians enabled him to take troops form other points of the field to use them

2, Wellington's attack did not produce a final result – it was the fall of Placenoit which cause the rout of the French.

to be more moderate, neither Wellington nor Blücher could achieve a final result without each others full committed support.

Downplaying the Prussian effort – in my view – yes indeed, he could not and would not have decided anything without the Prussian help other than being beaten by Napoleon.

WHY TIMELY?

Does anyone else reckon that this particular dead horse will still be being flogged for another 200 years?

3 years ago, almost to a day :

TMP link

Its the offical history- so must be true!

Jacko…

I think he meant that the Prussians turned up before Wellington's army was destroyed. Hence timely, meaning 'in time'.

I always understood the omission of credit to the Prussians was on the part of English fan boys not British generals.

Cheers,

The Bandit

Are there any clues to be had in the words to the Abba song?

Here ya go Jumbo – Knock yourself out!

My, my, at Waterloo Napoleon did surrender
Oh yeah, and I have met my destiny in quite a similar way
The history book on the shelf
Is always repeating itself

Waterloo – I was defeated, you won the war
Waterloo – Promise to love you for ever more
Waterloo – Couldn't escape if I wanted to
Waterloo – Knowing my fate is to be with you
Waterloo – Finally facing my Waterloo

My, my, I tried to hold you back but you were stronger
Oh yeah, and now it seems my only chance is giving up the fight
And how could I ever refuse
I feel like I win when I lose

Waterloo – I was defeated, you won the war
Waterloo – Promise to love you for ever more
Waterloo – Couldn't escape if I wanted to
Waterloo – Knowing my fate is to be with you
Waterloo – Finally facing my Waterloo

So how could I ever refuse
I feel like I win when I lose -

Waterloo – Couldn't escape if I wanted to
Waterloo – Knowing my fate is to be with you
Waterloo – Finally facing my Waterloo

Hmmmm …. suspiciously like someone is trolling for a flame war!

I think this issue has been done to death frankly and those who like to take sides have taken their sides. The recent books based entirely on this narrow topic are the best place to focus and have the space and print room to explore the issue.

This kind of thread will continue until eventually Napoleon will win at Waterloo, Wellington disappears in a poof of smoke & the Prussian become a mere blot on the paper!

But seriously, the despatch was written just after the battle, it is later when Wellington becomes a politician & the Prussians become the enemy that things start to change & memories become more selective.

With the power of Google books making previoulsy inaccessable sources available from the comfort of your home, students may now check, challenge & form other opinions to what historians have told us, although I doubt many will reach the depth of the likes of PH & Pedlow.

The username 'sparker' might have something to do with it.

"the dispatch was written just after the battle"

In other words classed as an "After action battle report" a brief. IMHO It should not be classed as a dispatch that came later.

Regards
James

But "the Duke" did 'dispatch' it, nicht wahr?

<;^}

P. S. By 'the Duke' I mean Wellington, NOT John Wayne. I wish to avoid any possible confusion in this confusing thread. SHS

Dear all,

Clearly my post has had some negative reaction, so I propose to rebut those points raised individually. But I do hope someone has found it useful to have this primary source document brought to their attention. Anyway, here goes:

Jacko27 and Sane Max, Why timely to post this now, is there some controversy? Well, I have been priviledged to be an active member of TMP for several years now and it is my impression that the canard that Wellington attempted to down play the role played by the Prussians is at least a regular, if not a constant, theme beloved of armchair generals. And it would seem that NSOLOMON99 above also thinks this has been a long running issue. Why quote the despatch now? Well, I've been away from my library for some time now, knew vaguely at the back of my mind that this one document could completely blow the argument out of the water for anyone who is open minded, but was reluctant to paraphrase it too wildly for fear of undermining my own argument, although the threat of apoplexy has forced me to weigh in half-cocked on occasion quoting this document, albeit rather vaguely. So perhaps it is only timely in my own mind, but surely any information, if accurate is of use to somebody?

Archiduke Charles – again with this? Yes, since to my knowledge, nobody else has brought this source to bear in this long running misconception. If they have, and I've missed it, then I apologise for wasting everybody's time, but I'm certain it would have been mentioned!

Dualer – no mention of Dutch Belgians, Scots, Welsh Irish etc. Well no mention of the latter three because he was writing as CinC of the British Army, and Britain was a United Kingdom incorporating the soldiers of these nations into one army.

Your point about the Netherlands army is a fine one, and if he did not mention the Netherlands troops except in passing this actually reinforces the compliment and his strength of feeling in mentioning his debt to the Prussians. I think the point is, as a historian, to look at the source, not with C21st preconceptions, but with C19th ones. This was a British General writing to the British Monarch about the British Army. He would not have been expected to comment on the performance of another Sovereign's troops, and I think it might have been viewed as lese majeste on his part. The very fact he compliments the Prussians is because, as the source clearly shows 'if I did not attribute the successful result of this arduous day to the cordial and timely assistance I received from them.' he would not have done justice to his feelings etc.

More generally, I do believe that the Duke and his contemporaries were guilty of underplaying the role played by the gallant Netherlands Forces, and that is a great shame. However, you must judge people by the times they lived in, and the C19th was the century of Nationalism.

Eagle 65 – What can I say, have you read the extract? And Sparker does not come from wishing to ignite controversy, it is the nickname given to my naval specialisation which I am proud to use.

The Bandit – No, the myth of 'omission of credit to the Prussians', IMHO, was started by historians needing to find a new angle with which to sell their books. Sadly, this theme seems to have been latched onto by Anglophobes jumping on the Anti-British bandwagon. Obviously, their attempts to trash the towering reputation of a man long dead says more about them than about him, but I hope in a small way that my presuming to highlight what he might have quoted if he were around to defend himself may lay that canard finally to rest.

nsolomon99 – I'm not trolling, just been wanting to get this off my chest for a long time but wanted to get my facts straight first. The fact that you believe that this issue 'has been done to death' at least bears out my belief that this has been a long standing argument, and surely there is always room for a key source which has not yet been quoted?

Kind Regards,

Sparker (as in dah dit dah!)

dit-dit-dit-dit dit-dit!

Im trying to remember who theposter was who always brought in references to mental disorders to people who disagreed with him.
Can anyone help?

Raducci,

Not worth the bother mate…

Does he drink Harvey Wallbangers?

Aaah the Duke, he wouldn't put up with this tom foolery, he would shoot the lot of us & then go save the lady (you know, the only one in the film)

Nice to see you back, Peter.Your like Blucher. Not that I mean you think an elephant got you pregnant.
Like Blucher, you may get constantly trashed by Napoleon but you keep coming back.

Sparker are you actually another reincarnation of Peter???

Hell no. Intel suggests that honour belongs to Yogi Bear…

Wellington downplayed the Prussian contribution, of course. It was a common and expected behaviour of any gentleman when he was reporting to his own government a victory. Come on! Anybody who has read any official dispatch knows that the trick is to put all the good things in your basket and all the things that went wrong in the basket of your allies. That the Dispatch of Wellington has the relevance it has is due the history of Great Britain and her World preponderance during the XIXth Century and of the USA (another English-speaking country) in the XXth and XXIth Centuries. If we would be living in a German-language dominated world we would be debating if Blucher won the battle alone or if he was helped by Wellington's army, and, of course, the debate would rage upon the Blucher's Dispatch to the King of Prussia!

basileus66,

Wellington downplayed the Prussian contribution, of course.

I don't know if you've actually read the excerpt I've posted above, I can only conclude that you havent, so:

"…attribute the successful result of this arduous day to the cordial and timely assistance I received…"

I don't wish to insult your intelligence, but the way I read that quote is 'I couldn't have done it without them'. So how is that downplaying their contribution? Or are you disagreeing that this source exists, or that it was written by Wellington on the day after the battle as the very first official account of the battle?

Kind Regards,

Sparker

I've read all of the dispatch- and I agree with basileus66.

Robbie7 I think you are on to something! That English/German/Austrian is one tricky dude. I do not think he knows how clever our posters are in reality.

The despatch is clear and unambiguous. I don't see how it could be any clearer.

Sadly that is not enough for some people.

Thanks for bringing it to our attention.

Sparker

I don't know how many official reports/dispatches have you read. I can assure you that I have read a real dammed lot of them and "timely assistance" was the usual way of saying: "We won the battle practically single handed, but our allies made a bit of a show when the enemy was almost routed and the battle was as good as won… anyway, as they are our allies is good politics to recognise they appeared after all!"
And which is more important: all people in their own time understood exactly not only what was written but also what was not.
Wellington didn't give a damm if he won the battle alone or with the help of the Legions of the Almighty. What he cared -and a lot, by Jove!- was about which were going to be his rewards back in England and his prestige between his peers!
Do you know what? Dispatches had nothing to do with battle, but with social standing, local politics and the cultural bias of the time they were written and of the particular society for they were written.

Kindest regards too

As the Duke might have said, "Humbug!".

Xopher, thanks for your kind words of support. I was beginning to doubt my own ability to read the Queen's english!

Basileus66, I understand your point about the context of the despatch, but I disagree. As a serving officer with 22 years in Dark Blue, I too have read a fair few despatches, and, more to the point, been there when they have been composed. And the overwhelming motive by the composers is to be as clear and unambiguous as possible, constrained only by the requirements of brevity. You ascribe some rather dishonourable motives to Wellington. Well, only the man himself and his Maker can ever know the real truth, all the rest of us can go on is the sources that have been left behind. And to my mind, given the overwhelming authority that was bound to be attached to this particular source at the time, I think his words speak for themselves. Any attempt to quibble about timings and so on, with the benefit of hindsight, should weigh little in the scales when balanced against the actual words of the man when written the day after the battle, given the immense strain the Duke must have been under.

Yogi Bear, hows things in Jellystone?

the duke…first mentions the Prussian intervention becoming effective AFTER 7 pm…

Could you enlighten me by giving me the quote in the Despatch where the Duke gives a timing for the Prussian attack? Because I can't find it anywhere. If however you are suggesting that, from your armchair it is obvious to you that the Prussians first became effective 2 and a half hours earlier than the one specifically mentioned by Wellington, then perhaps there are 2 possible explanations:

1/ Wellington is indeed somehow trying to lessen the importance of the Prussian contribution, but if that was his motive, given the power and, I would have thought, clarity of the preceding sentence, unlikely to take much away from their efforts.

2/ He, lacking your strategic insight and the benefit of consulting various accounts in a nice dry office may have overlooked that point during the battle. Maybe he had other things on his mind, like leading an army, and getting shot at…Personally, I would need a lot more concrete evidence than that about option 1 before attempting to undermine a man's reputation. He himself admitted that it would be difficult to order the events in the battle, by saying something like 'as well try to write the history of a ball as a battle'

Kind Regards,

Sparker

Well – Wellington could have written:

Without the Prussians I would have been beaten into pulp, or – I would most likley have suffered the same fate as the Prussians at Ligny – standing alone against Napoleon.

Wasn't he beaten at 19:00 and panick broke out in his Army when people walking to the rear thought the battle was lost seeing the soldiers leaving the battle field?

A bit like Bonaparte at Marengo?

Of course you cannot write such things in your dispatches. Nobody attacking Wellington here, because without pinning the French – he and Blooker could not have won that battle together.

Hi All,

Hoping that the following will be of use to anyone trying to follow this:

Wellington's Despatch

The position which I took up in front of Waterloo
crossed the highroads from Charleroi and Nivelles, and had
its right thrown back to a ravine near Merke Braine, which
was occupied, and its left extended to a height above the
hamlet Ter la Haye, which was likewise occupied. In front
of the right centre, and near the Nivelles road, we occupied the house and gardens of Hougoumont, which covered the return of that flank ; and in front of the left centre we occupied the farm of La Haye Sainte. By our left we com-
municated with Marshal Prince Bliicher at Wavre, through
Ohain ; and the Marshal had promised me that, in case we
should be attacked, he would support me with one or more
corps, as might be necessary.

The enemy collected his army, with the exception of the
3rd Corps, which had been sent to observe Marshal Bliicher,
on a range of heights in our front, in the course of the
night of the 17th and yesterday morning, and at about ten
o'clock he commenced a furious attack upon our post at
Hougoumont. I had occupied that post with a detachment
from General Byng's brigade of Guards, which was in
position in its rear; and it was for some time under the
command of Lieutenant-Colonel Macdonell, and afterwards
of Colonel Home ; and I am happy to add that it was main-
tained throughout the day with the utmost gallantry by these brave troops, notwithstanding the repeated efforts of large bodies of the enemy to obtain possession of it.

This attack upon the right of our centre was accompanied
by a very heavy cannonade upon our whole line, which was
destined to support the repeated attacks of cavalry and
infantry, occasionally mixed, but sometimes separate, which
were made upon it. In one of these the enemy carried the
farmhouse of La Haye Sainte, as the detachment of the
light battalion of the German Legion, which occupied it,
had expended all its ammunition ; and the enemy occupied
the only communication there was with them.

The enemy repeatedly charged our infantry with his
cavalry, but these attacks were uniformly unsuccessful ; and they afforded opportunities to our cavalry to charge, in one of which Lord E. Somerset's brigade, consisting of the Life Guards, the Royal Horse Guards, and 1st Dragoon Guards, highly distinguished themselves, as did that of Major-General Sir William Ponsonby, having taken many prisoners and an eagle.

These attacks were repeated till about seven in the
evening, when the enemy made a desperate effort with
cavalry and infantry, supported by the fire of artillery, to force our left centre, near the farm of La Haye Sainte,
which after a severe contest was defeated ; and, having
observed that the troops retired from this attack in great
confusion, and that the march of General Billow's corps, by
Frischermont upon Planchenois and La Belle Alliance, had
begun to take effect, and as I could perceive the fire of his cannon, and as Marshal Prince Blucher had joined in person with a corps of his army to the left of our line by Ohain, I determined to attack the enemy, and immediately advanced the whole line of infantry, supported by the cavalry and artillery. The attack succeeded in every point : the enemy was forced from his positions on the heights, and fled in the utmost confusion, leaving behind him, as far as I could judge, 150 pieces of cannon, with their ammunition, which fell into our hands.

I continued the pursuit till long after dark, and then
discontinued it only on account of the fatigue of our troops, who had been engaged during twelve hours, and because I found myself on the same road with Marshal Bliicher, who assured me of his intention to follow the enemy throughout the night. He has sent me word this morning that he had taken 60 pieces of cannon belonging to the Imperial Guard, and several carriages, baggage, etc., belonging to Buonaparte in Genappe.

I propose to move this morning upon Nivelles, and not
to discontinue my operations.

Your lordship will observe that such a desperate action .
could not be fought, and such advantages could not be
gained, without great loss ; and I am sorry to add that
ours has been immense. In Lieutenant-General Sir Thomas
Picton His Majesty has sustained the loss of an officer who
has frequently distinguished himself in his service, and he
fell gloriously leading his division to a charge with bayonets, by which one of the most serious attacks made by the enemy on our position was repulsed. The Earl of Uxbridge, after having successfully got through this arduous day, received a wound by almost the last shot fired, which will, I am afraid, deprive His Majesty for some time of his services.

His Royal Highness the Prince of Orange distinguished
himself by his gallantry and conduct, till he received a
wound from a musket -ball through the shoulder, which
obliged him to quit the field.

It gives me the greatest satisfaction to assure your
lordship that the army never upon any occasion conducted
itself better. The division of Guards, under Lieutenant-
General Cooke, who is severely wounded, Major-General
Maitland, and Major-General Byng, set an example which
was followed by all, and there is no officer nor description of troops that did not behave well.

I must, however, particularly mention for His Royal
Highness's approbation Lieutenant-General Sir H. Clinton,
Major-General Adam, Lieutenant-General Charles Baron
Alten (severely wounded), Major-General Sir Colin Halkett
(severely wounded), Colonel Ompteda, Colonel Mitchell
(commanding a brigade of the 4th Division), Major-Generals
Sir James Kempt and Sir D. Pack, Major-General Lambert,
Major-General Lord E. Somerset, Major-General Sir W.
Ponsonby, Major-General Sir C. Grant, and Major-General
Sir H. Vivian, Major-General Sir O. Vandeleur, and Major-
General Count Dornberg.

I am also particularly indebted to General Lord Hill
for his assistance and conduct upon this, as upon all former
occasions.

The artillery and engineer departments were conducted
much to my satisfaction by Colonel Sir George Wood and
Colonel Smyth ; and I had every reason to be satisfied with
the conduct of the Adjutant-General, Major-General Barnes,
who was wounded, and of the Quartermaster – General,
Colonel De Lancey, who was killed by a cannon-shot in the
middle of the action. This officer is a serious loss to His
Majesty's service, and to me at this moment.

I was likewise much indebted to the assistance of Lieu-
tenant-Colonel Lord FitzRoy Somerset, who was severely
wounded, and of the officers composing my personal staff,
who have suffered severely in this action. Lieutenant-
Colonel the Hon. Sir Alexander Gordon, who has died of his
wounds, was a most promising officer, and is a serious loss
to His Majesty's service.

General Kruse, of the Nassau service, likewise conducted
himself much to my satisfaction, as did General Tripp, com-
manding the heavy brigade of cavalry, and General Vanhope,
commanding a brigade of infantry, in the service of the King of the Netherlands.

General Pozzo di Borgo, General Baron Vincent, General
Muffling, and General Alava, were in the field during the
action, and rendered me every assistance in their power.
Baron Vincent is wounded, but I hope not severely, and
General Pozzo di Borgo received a contusion.

I should not do justice to my own feelings, or to Marshal
Blucher and the Prussian army, if I did not attribute the
successful result of this arduous day to the cordial and
timely assistance I received from them. The operation of
General Biilow upon the enemy's flank was a most decisive
one; and even if I had not found myself in a situation to
make the attack which produced the final result, it would
have forced the enemy to retire if his attacks should have
failed, and would have prevented him from taking advantage
of them if they should unfortunately have succeeded.

* Since writing the above, I have received a report that
Major -General Sir William Ponsonby is killed, and, in
announcing this intelligence to your lordship, I have to add the expression of my grief for the fate of an officer who had already rendered very brilliant and important services, and was an ornament to his profession.

I send with this despatch three eagles,taken by the
troops in this action, which Major Percy will have the
honour of laying at the feet of His Royal Highness. I beg
leave to recommend him to your lordship's protection.

I have the honour to be, etc.,

Wellington.

The full text is here link

Yogi,

Sorry, I honestly don't know what you mean. If there is a problem with the one I linked to, perhaps one of the historians that frequent this site could point me/us in the right direction?

Regards

So let me see if I've got this straight. It is the contention of certain posters here – well, one in particular – that:-

1) having been in the saddle for around 12 hours (not to mention the same period on the previous two days);

2) having participated in a prolonged battle against – allegedly – the best general of the age;

3) having seen virtually all of his personal staff, and many other close friends, killed or wounded around him (and quite possibly still wearing bits of them);

4) having no idea of how badly beaten Boney was and what further battles his bruised and battered army would have to fight (and how soon – tomorrow maybe?); and

5) having to sit down and try and (a) recall every major event that had happened that day AND in the right order, and (b) mention everyone who rendered conspicuous service/died for an immediate despatch aimed principally at forestalling the doom-mongers and his political opponents spreading bad vibes about him…..

…..the Number One Thing on the mind of the Duke (yes, ok, Wellington, not Wayne – boy you foreigners know how to kill a joke, don't you) was "How can I over this meddling Kraut and his bunch of sausage-eating losers, who will no doubt even now be claiming ALL of MY credit???"

Did I miss anything?

Yogi, since you have not answered my last query about where in the despatch you obtained your quote about Wellington specifically mentioning the timings of the Prussian attack, will you at least point out to me the differences in the Despatch kindly quoted by Whirlwind; which seems to meet with your approval, and the extract quoted by myself, which you seem to think I have made up; as pertaining to the assistance the Duke of Wellington obtained from the Prussians. Because, once again, I can't find any.

An historian who appears in the guise of a cartoon character, speaking about himself in the third person, should not be too surprised to find that many cannot take him seriously. "Yogi Bear" has done more to discredit his theories with these strange appearances than his most ardent critics could ever have hoped to achieve.

Yogi, If you think anyone here actually thinks you are posting from Jellystone then you are underestimating us wildly (actually, come to think of it, that might explain a lot!)

As to your last post, you're missing the point. I don't think anyone doubts that the despatch was written the next day, the point being made is that if he didn't render a full and accurate rendition of the Prussian attacks it might be because he failed to register them himself on the 18th cos he was otherwise engaged.

I think this is all getting a little silly, my aim in thread was to bring the relevant portion of this despatch to everyone's attention as I think it clearly shows, in plain english, how the Duke (of Wellington) reported the contribution of the Prussian army:

if I did not attribute the
successful result of this arduous day to the cordial and
timely assistance I received from them…

This time I have quoted from Whirlwind's post with which you have stated you are satisfied, rather than mine (although I fail to see any difference myself)

Now to me that prety clearly states, in todays argot 'I couldn't have done it without them coming at just the right time'

'Nuff said, surely?

<<He wrote the Despatch the next day, spending several hours doing so and after making numerous alterations to his original draft.>>

My, we do get cross when our authority is challenged, don't we?

Did I deny any of these things? Did I state that he didn't write it the next day? Did I state that he didn't make several drafts? Given that he still had to run a badly battered army, and that fresh information – some of it probably contradicting previous information – was still constantly arriving at his headquarters, I would guess that getting it "right first time" would have been a little difficult.

And are you now suggesting that a few hours of frequently interrupted sleep on a strange surface whilst one of his friends was slowly dying in the Duke's own bed in the next room, completely invalidates every point I made?

<<You may like to try reading a history book.>>

Any you'd care to recommend?

Perhaps you should try reading other people's posts and look at what they actually write.

Supercilious Maximus,

Sorry, our posts crossed there, didn't mean to make your point for you.

Kind Regards,

Sparker