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"Some silly questions about Napoleonic medic services" Topic


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Palafox10 Nov 2008 3:01 a.m. PST

Hello.

As I've just included a French ambulance in a recent order to Minifigs I have realized I know nearly nothing about the medics during this time.

Seems to me looking at OOBs that the only ambulances and field medics where French and other nations used rearguard hospitals with primitive transport for wounded troops. I suppose the ambulances would have been used for transport of patients from the field of battle posts where the wounded received first assistance to rearguard hospitals.

Is there any info online or some books about this?. Another question, were the hospitals spared when an army was routed or defeated?, did the doctors just flee and leave the patients to the mercy of the enemy?, I realised also how few I know about napoleonic times POWs and their treatment, I just know a little about French POWs in Spain after Bailen and it's not nice. All this would be useful for creating some campaign rules.

Another silly question, in the Minifigs set with the ambulance orderlies and doctor, there are two orderlies carrying pikes, does anyone know why?, what are those pikes for?.

Thank you.

Connard Sage10 Nov 2008 3:05 a.m. PST

You can thank Dominique Larrey for field ambulances

link

and from that page

link

link

Erwinrocky10 Nov 2008 3:45 a.m. PST

The pikes are for finish off, the serious injured men….

Palafox10 Nov 2008 8:51 a.m. PST

Thanks a lot for the links Connard, that's very helpful.

Jorge, I have my doubts about that. huh?

10th Marines10 Nov 2008 8:51 a.m. PST

Source?

vaughan10 Nov 2008 9:13 a.m. PST

I believe the pike is part of a collapsable stretcher.I think the "stretcher" part is carried on the back, and when combined with the parts carried by another could form the whole.And no, I can't recall where I read this.

Connard Sage10 Nov 2008 9:44 a.m. PST

If you can find a copy of Bruce Quarrie's "Napoleon's Campaigns in Miniature" (I have one, but I'm not selling grin), chapter 7 looks at medical services and prisoners of war. It's a handy book if you want a broad overview at the logistics of Napoleonic warfare, just don't expect too much detail

auction

11th ACR10 Nov 2008 10:20 a.m. PST

This book is very good.

A Surgical Artist at War: The Paintings and Sketches of Sir Charles Bell 1809-1815 by M K H Crumplin and, P Starling
link


Also from the time of the Rev wars.
link

And from the Empire period.
link

Robert Henry

Palafox11 Nov 2008 2:52 a.m. PST

Thank you very much for your kind help gents. I'll try to buy any/some of the books adjusting a little this month budget and hoping my wife does not notice.

Bandit11 Nov 2008 10:34 a.m. PST

2nd Conrad's recommendation.

Cheers,

The Bandit

Robert le Diable11 Nov 2008 12:41 p.m. PST

Further to vaughan's info. about the pikes (closer in length to halberds, really) and the wooden end-frames carried on the packs of two orderlies, there was also a canvas "mattress" which, when not in use, was rolled and worn around the waist. Thus, the stretcher had five separate parts; two poles, two end-frames, and the length of canvas. I guess the canvas was stitched at either long side to provide a continuous loop through which each pole would be passed; obviously, if the poles did indeed have a metal spike/axe-head attached (looks more military, I suppose), they'd have to be passed through a wooden end frame's holes first, then down the canvas loop and finally into the second wooden frame.

Palafox12 Nov 2008 5:26 a.m. PST

Thanks a lot Robert. I think that finishes to clarify the issue. The ilustration showed by 11th ACR also helps a lot.

BTW, thanks again Connard, found the book at a good price at Alibris.com

11th ACR13 Nov 2008 7:13 p.m. PST

One more article:

Medicine in Egypt at the time of Napoleon Bonaparte.

link

This one shows a picture of the Dromedary field ambulance of Dominique-Jean Larrey.

Palafox14 Nov 2008 3:11 a.m. PST

Thank you very much 11th ACR

11th ACR23 Nov 2008 1:10 p.m. PST

Here is some more stuff:

Sketch of the Medical History of the British Armies in the Peninsula of Spain and Portugal, during the late campaigns.
James Macgrigor

link


Notes on the Medical History and Statistics of the British Legion of Spain: Comprising the Results of Gun-shot Wounds, in Relation to Important Questions in Surgery by Rutherford Alcock

link

And this is what I use for my Napoleon in Egypt and the Holy Land Game.


Medical and Heath: Some of the major problems for all forces involved in this theater of operations were the threat of Disease. Some of the major problems were the Bubonic Plague, Dysentery, Heat Exhaustion/Heatstroke and Ophthalmia.

Bubonic Plague: Is an acute, severe infectious disorder caused by the bacterium. These bacteria can be carried by small wild rodents, other wild animals or even household pets. The disease can be transmitted to humans through the bites of fleas or through direct contact with infected animal tissues. Major symptoms include an abrupt onset with chills, fever, and enlarged lymph nodes (buboes).

Dysentery: Is a disease involving inflammation of the lining of the large intestine. The inflammation, which is caused by microscopic organisms, produces abdominal pain and diarrhea. The bowel movements may contain mucus and blood. Some cases of dysentery include fever or vomiting. Many of the French troops were infected with Dysentery when eating watermelons along the Nile River.

Heat Exhaustion: Heat Exhaustion occurs when a person cannot sweat enough to cool the body. Symptoms of heat exhaustion include fatigue, weakness, headache, dizziness, nausea, and skin that are cool, moist, pale, or flushed. Heat exhaustion can sometimes lead to heatstroke.

Heatstroke: Occurs when the body fails to regulate its own temperature and body temperature continues to rise, often to 105 °F or higher. A person with heatstroke may stop sweating. Symptoms of heatstroke include confusion, delirium, or unconsciousness and skin that is red, hot, and dry, even under the armpits.

Ophthalmia: Is a name for severe diseases affecting the eye membranes. These diseases may be caused by infections, poisons, or injuries. Sympathetic ophthalmia, a rare condition, spreads to both eyes after a serious injury to one eye and can lead to blindness if untreated. This was a very common disease during the campaign. Manly being caused by Sand in the air and extreme sun light. Not fatal, if treated (bandages over eyes) a full recovery in ten days.

Any of these heath problems may be represented by giving a unit a reduction in it combat capability's as well as movement. It may also affect the command and control of the army and the unit's in it.

To remedy some of the army's medical/heath problems, specifically combat wounds you may wish to have a Hospital element with your army. This would mainly be used during Siege Operations or during a Campaign Game. It will be represented by a four inch by four inch (4" x 4") base and will have six – ten (6-10) figures mounted on it.

A Hospital will have no shooting capability, it will move at the speed of beasts of burden and if attacked in close combat it will at zero (0) defensive points. It will take a Hospital two hour (4 turn) to setup/tear down for movement. And during either movement or setup/tear down they may not be assisting the wounded.

Note: If an army is capable of having a hospital it may have more than one. Example one in each major group of the army or in a garrison.

Casualties returning to duty after a battle:
Return of losses: (Casualty Replacement):
a. If both sides are in possession of the battlefield at the end of the battle then both sides recover two thirds (2/3rds) of their casualties in (LM's).

b. If one side retreats with a rearguard it recovers one half (½) of its casualties. The victorious side recovers two thirds (2/3rds) of its infantry and cavalry casualties and all of its artillery casualties in (LM's).

c. If there is no rearguard then the retreating army recovers one third (1/3rd) of its infantry and cavalry and none of its artillery in (LM's).

e. A rearguard must be intact and neither routed/fleeing or units that have reached there "Break Point" or are "Shaken" (Yellow LM), and equal to at least one quarter of the army's original formed troop strength.

Some nations had a better level of medical care. This may be represented by adjusting the above mentioned Hospital rule.

The French had a very good standard of care for its sick and wounded.
French: Plus 1/4th will return.

The Mamelukes would have hardly any medical care for its sick and wounded.
Mameluke: Plus 1/16th will return.

The Ottomans would be below standard in its medical care for its sick and wounded.
Ottomans: Plus 1/8th will return.

The British would be below standard in its medical care for its sick and wounded.
British: Plus 1/8th will return.

At first light on the day after a battle the recovered losses (slightly/walking wounded) will return to there units, by removing the appropriate amount of LM's.

Note: if a unit was eliminated do to Close Combat, or being Massacred during surrender, these losses may not be brought back.

Robert Henry

11th ACR23 Nov 2008 1:17 p.m. PST

And some more:

"Statements of the comparative health of the British navy, from the year 1779 to the year 1814, with proposals for its farther improvement" by Sir Gilbert Blane, Bart, from the Medico-Chirurgical Transactions, vol 6 (1st ed. 1815; 2nd ed. 1819)

link

Those interested in these types of materials will find more using

General Index to the First Thirty-Three Volumes of the Medico-Chirurgical Transactions. Published in 1851:

link

Robert Henry

Steven H Smith23 Nov 2008 2:06 p.m. PST

Robert, that looks very familiar. <;^}

11th ACR23 Nov 2008 11:28 p.m. PST

I thought that it may be some added info for the subject Steven.

Palafox25 Nov 2008 6:30 a.m. PST

That's a lot of helpful information.

Thank you very much for your time searching for it Robert.

Steven H Smith25 Nov 2008 7:06 a.m. PST

<;^}

Palafox25 Nov 2008 7:12 a.m. PST

Huh… I'm a little lost Steve, ¿what was very familiar?.

11th ACR25 Nov 2008 10:43 a.m. PST

Steve posted

"Statements of the comparative health of the British navy, from the year 1779 to the year 1814, with proposals for its farther improvement" by Sir Gilbert Blane, Bart, from the Medico-Chirurgical Transactions, vol 6 (1st ed. 1815; 2nd ed. 1819)

link

Those interested in these types of materials will find more using

General Index to the First Thirty-Three Volumes of the Medico-Chirurgical Transactions. Published in 1851:

link

From the napoleon-series.org a few days ago.

I found his post there a added it to this subject.

Robert Henry

Palafox25 Nov 2008 2:15 p.m. PST

Aahh… now I understand. :^)

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