Connard Sage | 17 Aug 2008 3:22 a.m. PST |
While I'm rolling, I tend to agree with christot. It must be said however that most of the 'new intake' that I've seen tends to be older than teenage.
and it is odd, or perhaps not, that the few Brit respondents to this thread don't see that actively 'selling' the hobby is a solution
or even that there is a problem that needs solving |
Capt John Miller | 17 Aug 2008 3:57 a.m. PST |
OK guys, I have talked about this before on other threads on TMP. I have a solution to the greying of the hobby. VIC's Grecian formula |
pavelft | 17 Aug 2008 4:50 a.m. PST |
OFM, you're question of "Why should I?" seems to be moot as you're already doing it. YOu just said you went out and put on a game for the public. That's all I proposed, I simply suggested a different venue other than the game store. If you don't feel you owe the hobby anything, and you don't feel an impetus to pass something you enjoy to another generation, well, that's your call. Perhaps that' a general malaise of a sorts to think of impermanence at a certain age. Guess I still have that and vinegar in me and still think about passing something along I enjoy. If I can pass on gaming to another, then perhaps I feel good about it. Forest |
nycjadie | 17 Aug 2008 8:18 a.m. PST |
The biggest difference between a scholar and a wargamer (and I'm being unjust here) is that a scholar will believe that it's arguable whether the lace color is yellow and the wargamer says that the lace color IS white because there is some bizarre reference in a diary entry by Sir Bonehead. |
aecurtis | 17 Aug 2008 8:22 a.m. PST |
Just to take off on a tangent: I don't agree that computer "simulations" are necessarily either more accurate or better training for serving troops. You generally don't stop a compterized game to talk about the options, or to to make a teaching point. But that's exactly what we were doing as students at the Armor Sxhool, 32 years ago, with Dunn-Kempf. Guys like Rudy and Dan will remember that, Tabletop miniature games don't rely on the "expertise" of a programmer to achieve realistic results. Just as in their forebear, kriegspiel, a miniatures game can reflect the real-world experience of an umpire of GM. Guys like Chuck Clark (at III Corps) and his counterparts at other battle simulation centers have been teaching effectively using manual (mniatures on a terrain board) simulations for over thirty years. There's an awful lot of folks here who can attest to that, too. And you haven't seen training until you've seen Jon Cleaves conduct a by-the-numbers NTC after-action review for some troopers at the end of a game of Warhammer Fantasy Battle! And back on topic: the military will continue to provide new gamers, just as they always have. Allen |
aegiscg47 | 17 Aug 2008 8:57 a.m. PST |
I think the model railroading analogy is a good one and I recently attended a large train show which was packed with all ages, but the only people presenting layouts or buying anything were over age 40. Also, go to plastic model stores and a large percentage buying those $100+ model kits from Tamiya and Trumpeter are all over age 40. I just think today's generation can't find the time between their Playstation 3, texting on cell phones, and watching reality shows to get into time intensive hobbies. Our group(most of us have been gaming well over 15-20 years each) is split on the subject of getting more people involved. Some guys really go after it and put on games at the local store while several of us just don't feel the need anymore. I will gladly help people who have questions, need reference materials, etc.., but putting on games outside of our regular gaming nights really has not gotten us the recruits that everyone thought it would. Most of today's gamers want everything done for them, the game needs to be over in less than two hours, and history is just something that gets in the way of having some quick fun. I would rather spend the time converting someone already in the hobby to participate in a new period, a group project, or trying a new set of rules. |
Connard Sage | 17 Aug 2008 9:02 a.m. PST |
And back on topic: the military will continue to provide new gamers, just as they always have. Another assumption that may hold water in the States but not elsewhere. Of my current circle of about 16 gaming friends only I have been in the forces, and I was a gamer before that. This has always been my experience in Britain |
Neotacha | 17 Aug 2008 9:12 a.m. PST |
Biggest turn off? That condescending 'you play fantasy' or 'you play science fiction' or 'pulp's not really historical' attitude. Second biggest turn off? The 'you use those figures?' insistence that a particular manufacturer is evil, or spawn of the devil, or sculpts like they're doing jack-o-lanterns. I play what I play, with the figures I like. You don't like it, don't play with me, but if I'm not denigrating your choice of game/miniatures, don't you dare denigrate mine. The more people insist I must play historical games, the less likely I am to even consider it. Particularly after I've browsed the Napoleonics boards. |
christot | 17 Aug 2008 9:48 a.m. PST |
They are a great advert for the hobby!! |
Dentatus | 17 Aug 2008 11:33 a.m. PST |
I think OFM hit it with his "obligation to The Hobby ?" question. This is a hobby, which means fun, friends, common interests
I'm not under oath to perpetuate my recreational interests. There are far more serious issues I consider worthy of discussion and debate in the public arena. Toy soldiers just isn't one of them. I enjoy gaming, I tend to invite others by nature, and I've found that enthusiasm to be contagious to certain kinds of folks at different times in their lives. There's nothing wrong with making a concerted effort to build awareness and introduce people to the hobby, but I think if you concentrate on recruiting you'll lose the essence of what hobby gaming is supposed to be: a fun social activity. |
50 Dylan CDs and an Icepick | 17 Aug 2008 1:52 p.m. PST |
Whenever people start talking in reverential terms about "The Hobby," I start to glaze over. As if "The Hobby" is some sort of entity apart from me, or us, that I have to do something for? Feel loyalty to? There was some thread here a few months ago, in which people were talking about whether or not there should be a "Flames of War Style" Napoleonics game. Five or six guys actually wrote that they'd never buy it, but "it would be great for The Hobby!" This sort of drivel is so naive, it's embarrassing. The Hobby is US. It's who we are, and what we're doing. And it should go without saying that *my* idea of the hobby is radically different from *your* idea of the hobby, which is why there are so many games out there that I love, but you have no interest in playing, and vice-versa. So as far as I'm concerned, "The Hobby" is simply what *I'm* interested. The fact that I've stumbled across half a dozen great friends who share these interests (most of them, anyway), is just a happy coincidence. It's not some church or nation-state that needs to be preserved after my death. It doesn't even need to be preserved past this weekend, if my friends or I lose interest. By that same token, there's not much point trying to "recruit" younger people, unless by that same sort of happy coincidence, you also already like the same sorts of things that they like. Personally, I'd be rather worried about a 50-year-old whose interests were the same as a 15-year-old's
. We're already on pretty thin ice here, playing with toy soldiers. Why should the kid like our old-man's hobby, any more than we should like the kid's pop music? If the kid is into it
Great! Fine with me. But if not? So what. |
Martin Rapier | 17 Aug 2008 2:26 p.m. PST |
"Second on my list is gamers who try to convince themselves, and others, that by shoving a few nicely painted figures around a table for a few hours they are Exploring History. Nope, sorry, what you are doing is pushing a few nicely painted figures around a table for a few hours in the name of entertainment. Get over yourselves" I see I've wasted the last thirty years then. Damn. |
nycjadie | 17 Aug 2008 2:28 p.m. PST |
That was well said. Soup to Nuts, what was your prior TMP handle? |
pavelft | 17 Aug 2008 4:41 p.m. PST |
Recruiting, promoting, advertising all seem to fall under the same category, no? Some of you all aren't buying what I'm "selling", and you're more than welcome to that. How about this, to those who would like to expose new people to the historical wargaming it'd be nice if you did so. If you are in the group that doesn't care whether they meet a new gamer or not, go about your business just as usual. I can always buy miniatures from your estate sales :-) Forest |
Klebert L Hall | 18 Aug 2008 6:41 a.m. PST |
The graying of the hobby is a self-repairing problem. Eventually, we and the hobby will all be dead and the hobby will no longer be gray. Damn kids these days, too good for rolling hoops! -Kle. |
Der Alte Fritz | 18 Aug 2008 10:35 a.m. PST |
When I was introduced to the hobby in 1986 and started reading MWAN magazine, it was full of "greying of the hobby" articles and letters. So nothing changes that much. I agree with the numerous posters who have stated that wargaming is a hobby or a past time for them and that evangelizing or recruiting newcomers is not part of the equation for them. I've done my bit for the "sacred hobby". I've run more games at conventions than I can remember; I've published a wargaming journal for over seven years; I've written countless articles for wargaming publications; I keep a wargaming blog that seems to attract a nice following of interested readers. None of these things were done out of a sense of need or urgency. I did them because they were fun for ME. If I got a few compliments and atta-boys along the way, then so much the better. If what I did was completely ignored, then so what -- I had fun doing it my way. I also found my own replacement – my nephew. So I've restocked the pool of wargamers. |
pphalen | 18 Aug 2008 1:24 p.m. PST |
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Mephistopheles | 18 Aug 2008 1:28 p.m. PST |
How to stem the graying of the hobby? One word: euthanasia. In fact, this is the foremost word that comes to my mind whenever I go to TMP. |
Farstar | 18 Aug 2008 5:43 p.m. PST |
"The key is fun." The one part of "the hobby" that does seem to be greying is the heavy simulationist crowd. They may get the incoming youngsters to *play* in the big Tarawa re-do they run at every convention (and the local one is dang spiffy, no joke), but the kids lack the context to appreciate it enough to carry the torch of purely historical reconstruction games. "Fun" is what each person trying to have it thinks it should be. The historical reconstruction gamers are generally not having the same kind of fun as the incoming youngsters are looking for. Sure, they may discover it eventually, but one is not generally recruited into an obsession; one must face plant into it on their own. |
Mephistopheles | 18 Aug 2008 7:53 p.m. PST |
Of course, another possibility would be for Old Foolish Morons to stop jerking new gamers around the second they hit TMP. Just a thought. |
Sane Max | 19 Aug 2008 4:09 a.m. PST |
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xLAVAx | 19 Aug 2008 5:55 a.m. PST |
Geez
Why can't you "historical" folks just die off quietly
|
Ed the Two Hour Wargames guy | 20 Aug 2008 10:02 a.m. PST |
Actually it isn't historical vs. fantasy/sci fi. It's big cumbersome battle with loads of figures and capital outlay versus skirmish games with a few figures and not a lot of capital to get into it. I have lots of young kids play in my historical games. |