"Confusing about scales and size of ships" Topic

Complete and utterly hopeless landlubber here hoping to get some help with naval scales and ships sizes. I am going to take the plunge into WWI and WWII naval gaming but I am clueless when it comes to what scale to use. So I am hoping the TMP can help me out.

1. I am in the U.S. so ordering abroad, especially with the dollar as it is isn't going to happen. I need to be able to purchase all my ships from shipyards here in the states.

2. Currently I have a 9x5 foot pingpong table but I am willing to play on the floor, though at my age I prefer not to.

3. I am interested in both small surface actions with a handful of ships per side to larger actions with a dozen ships per side; If that is possible on a 9x5 foot table.

4. 1/6000 scale is out. It looks like a great scale to do large fleet actions with or small actions on a small table, but I don't know how people distinguish between different ships at that scale!

That leaves 1/2400, 1/3000 and 1/4800.

5. What is the difference in size (in inches or metric) between ships at these different scales? How long are the different ship classes (BB, CA, CL, DD) in these scales?

6. Does the size of my gaming space (9x5) lend itself to one scale over the others?

I would like to chose a scale before I chose a manufacturer but I will ask…

7. Does any scale have any advantages over the others based on completeness of line, availablity, detail and price?

Any help from the saltier TMP members would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks again.

9x5 is big enough to take your pick. 1/2400 has the best detail if you're willing to pay for it (especially GHQ) while 1/3000 is less detailed but cheaper and mucg more comprehensively covered – there's very little that isn't available in 1/3000. I don't know much about 1/4800, but suspect the detail's less than the 1/6000 models, so would skip it.

Dom.

Hi jam1234!

I use 1/2400 scale ships for WWII Naval games exclusively. I use a Ping Pong Table and it is perfectly sized for either General Quarters or for Victory at Sea. Plus, at /2400 there are a wide variety of manufacturers.

!/4800 simply doesn't offer a wide variety of quality models. There are a few fantastic C in C ships, all from WW2 Brits and Germans and a fairly decent assortment of MY models that vary between OK and fishing weights but overall, do not compare well with either the 1/6000 or 1/3000 ranges, much less C in C. Size is a major plus with BB's in the 1.5-2" range

1/3000 from Navwar, Skytrex/Davco and Stronghold (and there are others) offers darn near every ship ever for pre-dread through modern with decent looking models and other than in modern, a table scale to ship scale that will look OK on a 9 x 5. Size wise, BB's mostly in the 3-4" range.

1/2400 is also very available with some great quality stuff but the battleships are pushing 6"+/- and on a 9x5 table, big battles are going to look as if they are all at point blank range although smaller ship engagements would work well.

in 1/2400 my Kongo BC and Texas BB are around 3" long. They look perfectly fine on my Ping pong table.

Are there any US-based 1/3000 scale manufacturers? My impression has always been that they are all in the UK, although you can order them through US sources and then wait … and wait … and wait …

For the moment, I'm building my fleets with 1/2400 scale Panzerschiffes. They aren't as detailed as GHQ or CinC but they are much less expensive, Dave ships very quickly, and none of the local klutzes have managed to break one yet (a real plus when you do convention and demo games).

LT

Easiest thing to do is remember that when it comes to scale, that the 1/2400 number means that 1" is equal to 2400 inches (which is 200 feet). If 1/3000 then it's 250 feet. And so on.

So google search a particular ship, say, Bismarck, and find out how long she was, and then determine how many inches that would be in each of the scales you might be looking at.

Bismarck was 823 feet long, so in 1/2400 with each 1" = 200 feet, thus each 1/8th inch = 25 feet, that would make her about 4 1/8" long.

Same ship in 1/48oo scale would be a hair longer than 2".

Figure a battleship was about 800 feet, a crusier about 600 feet, a light cruiser about 500 feet, a destroyer about 400 feet, and those are good ballpark figures.

Of course, it's not usually the large ships you need to worry about. A 4" Bismarck will still look like a Bismarck. But what about gaming with destroyers? In 1/2400 scale a 400 ft destroyer (typical length) would be 2" long, but at 1/4800 it would be this tiny 1" narrow strip. And probably dang hard to recognize what class it is, unless marked in some way.

The decision as to what scale is really yours to make. I have a 4' x 6' table. I'm not getting down on the floor with my bad knee and my bad back. Period. I can adapt any rule set to fit on my table, by trimming down speeds and ranges. No, I won't get the feeling of great distance, but then, you probably need to game in a gym floor to get a real feel for ranges.

I have been using the pre-painted 1/1800 scale Axis & Allies War at Sea ships, and they are a nice size for my ailing eyes. I play WAS, and have the rulebook for Victory at Sea (which should also work fine on my tabletop).

For completeness, I believe others will probably chime in that the 1/2400 GHQ line is well done, quite expensive, made of metal, require assembly, and wonderful to look at, and that Panzerschiffs (also in 1/2400) are very well fleshed out, much cheaper, made of resin, no assembly required, and not as nice looking – but servicable for gaming.

I don't believe that any other product lines, in any other scales, are as well fleshed out as those two.

Hope that helps.
Steve

I don't believe that any other product lines, in any other scales, are as well fleshed out as those two.

Have to disagree with that point – Navwar and Skytrex 1/3000 offer a truly immense range – far more comprehensive.

I recommend the 1/2400th scale ships, since they are generally the most widely accepted scale (my personal opinion), here in the USA.

The GHQ and CinC ships are both superb.

Generally, GHQ vessels have more detail, and some has been enlarged, out of scale, to make them show up. CinC vessels are generally cleaner, with less exaggerated detail, but superbly sculpted and cast, nonetheless.

I use both of these ranges together, without any reservations, since each have their own strengths, and types of vessels, e.g. CinC (now Pfc.) does a nice range of merchant vessels for convoy battles. If on a budget, get the CinC models, until you can afford the GHQ ships. If you have a few particular favorite ships though, go for the more expensive GHQ models, since they are worth it for the superb detailing.

You can also get some vessels from Viking Forge in this scale, and from Superior too, but the latter have been out of production for some time. These aren't as good as the ones mentioned above, but are still useful for gaming.

1/3000th ships are decent too, but since they aren't much smaller than the 1/2400th scale, I chose the larger ones, since they have better detailing. The downside is the 1/2400th scale vessels cost more though.

1/3000th scale is generally used more in the UK, and Europe, I believe, from what I have read.

1/6000th are great, for large battles, at a more realistic distance/range scale compared to the minis. Most people mount these on labeled bases, so they can tell them apart, since they are very small, e.g. destroyers, and such. If running games without a lot of capital ships though, I would recommend the larger scales instead.

The CinC 1/4800th scale minis are supposedly very nicely sculpted, but as mentioned, they are quite limited in the types of vessels available. Most were produced for running Convoy Battles in the arctic.

I hope that helps.

Best regards,

Rob

I'd say the biggest overall difference between 1/2400 and 1/3000 is completeness of range. Outside of Panzerschiffes and some Viking Forge, most 1/2400 makers haven't really served the auxilliary market meaning the less glamorous merchants, trawlers, tugs and small craft as well as the pre-dreadnoughts that are very filled in with 1/3000.

The flip side is that virtually all the 1/2400 makers are US based whereas the bulk of 1/3000 manufacturers are UK based and given the weakness of the dollar, the price gap is narrower than ever between the scales ,greatly reducing the incremental cost of the 1/2400.

For me, ground scale to ship scale is a huge deal and except for my 1905 and earlier fleets, I found 1/3000 to simply look better on the table where long range had (for me) to look like really long range and the rate of closure had to be realistic but then again, I dumped 1/3000 for 1/6000 in fleet actions because to me, 1/3000 didn't look 'right', much less 1/2400.

The rules you choose will dictate some of this. If the rules and scale choice won't result in your ships being 1,000 yards long with movement that closes range in 10,000 yard chunks, scale won't matter and I'd go for the best looking models out there which is GHQ supported/filled out with C in C and Viking Forge.

I'll agree that the "ground" scale is important to me (thus the 1/6000 ships I use) as I want the ships to look like they are actually some distance from each other.

That said, if in the states I'd go for 1/2400 Panzerschiffes. They are excellent war gaming models, don't require any assembly and as mentioned they can take a beating without breaking, bending or losing small parts.

Dan

For myself I use 1/3000th Scale ships and some 1/2400th Scale mostly.

The 1/3000th Scale i use for the Pre-Dreadnought era Russo-Japanese War period mostly.

The 1/2400th Scale ships i have are mostly Japanese and some American's,German's and a few assorted other minis.

As for the 1/6000th Scale i myself have the German,Japanese and Italian WWII Fleets,my friend has the American's,French,British and some other countries as well.

The detail on these mini's is pretty good and from a distance you can make out what the larger ships are.

This line of minis also makes most of the Never Built vessels.

And for Price the 1/6000th Scale is pretty good compared to the other Scales prices.

But the fianl choice is up to you.

Captain Gideon

FYI I use GHQ and CinC for ships with guns (DD-BB)and Panzerschiffe for Carriers and PT boats.

What.. no 1/700?

The GHQ PT boats pack is superb.

Sadly, they have never done any British MTB's, or MGB's, or German S-Boats. These were in combat almost nightly, right up to the end of the war, so are a very glaring omission.

I now use 1/1250th scale vessels for my Coastal Forces actions, and hope to do some in 1/600th and 1/300th soon as well. The 1/1250th scale boats are superbly sculpted and cast.

Best regards,

Rob

I started with 1/2400 Panzerschiffe, because I was interested in decent ships while keeping the cost down.

Now I've switched to 1/3000 Skytrex/Davco. Actually a little better than Panzerschiffe in some cases. . about half the price (making them about 1/6 the price of GHQ!) They paint up nicely. . . and with the slightly smaller scale, the ranges look a little more realistic. My suggestion. . .

Buy 1/3000s Skytex/Davco from Warweb.com.

For WWI ships get yourself 3x1 3mm laser cut wood bases from litkoaero.com.

For WWII ships get 4x1 2mm laser cut wood bases, same place.

Here is how they turn out:

picture

Time to plug my two Yahoo Groups LOL. Robert

1-4800thNavalWargaming

This Group is for those of us who like to use 1/4800th scale Naval miniatures for wargaming all eras. Please feel free to post rules,pictures of ships and any other info to help play battles with this great scale!

link

and,

Navalwargaming1-3000thscale

This Group is for those of us who like to use 1/3000th scale Naval miniatures for wargaming all eras. Please feel free to post rules,pictures of ships and any other info to help play battles with this great scale

link

With respect to "1/6000 scale is out. It looks like a great scale to do large fleet actions with or small actions on a small table, but I don't know how people distinguish between different ships at that scale!"…

Assuming your glasses prescription is up-to-date, any scale has a characteristic range, below which you can distinguish the different ship types. For 1:6000, it's from 1-plus feet away. This distance is easily achieved when playing at a small table, at least momentarily. For example:

picture

While the picture is pretty. . . I can't agree that 1/6000 are really satisfying for gaming.

The problem with that scale is that you pretty much HAVE to be at about 1 foot distance. . . but at a normal game table, you're going to be between 3-5 feet away from the minis. At that distance 1/6000s just look like tiny blobs of metal. . . and that's the battleships, let alone the cruisers and destroyers.

I think 1/3000 offers a compromise between smaller size to make the most use of your play area, and detail that can actually be resolved on the ship at 'gaming distance.'

I also like 1/2400 scale, but it does tend to eat up the play surface, as well as cost significantly more to take advantage of the opportunity for detail that 1/2400 offers.

My point is that you can position yourself appropriately for any of these "small" table scales (1:6000, 1:4800, 1:3000, 1:2400), and get an IDENTICAL view of the game. The smaller the scale, the smaller the table and closer the distance you view from.

For example, my current table is 7' by 8', and I've been able to play 1:2400 WWII on this size table.

For 1:6000, I of course use the same table, as it already exists. However, If I was just entering the hobby, and was short of space, I could use a 3' x 3.5' table. I might chose to play the game sitting in a chair by this smaller table, instead of my normal standing mode. From this closer distance, I would see the same field of view, the same level of detail, and have the same relative playing area as when using 1:2400 on my 7' x 8'.

You *can* do just about anything you want.

However, I don't want to have to spend the game leaning over the table staring at it from 12" away so I can discern the details on the ships I'm playing with. I can tell you exactly how long that would last. . .

A scale should be appropriate for somebody who is sitting on a chair, pushed a little ways back from the table, standing upgright looking over the table, or sitting down leaning in close. It should not force you to sit or stand in a particular position. A scale that does that is not doing its job.

Just sat down in a chair beside by gaming table, viewing a 1:6000 Scharnhorst (WWII). It looks nicely Scharnhorst-like at that 2.5-foot sitting-in-a-chair distance. Kind of small from the standing position, but that's for an overall view of the battle.

Of course I can see more detail if I get closer, but the overall appearance at 2 1/2 feet is similar to the "Jutland" image I posted above. You will note I don't use bases (and remove the DDs from their bases), since they distort the appearance of the model. The Hallmark bases are particularly bad, due to their thickness and irregular cast shape. Perhaps that has been the problem with your 1:6000 models?

Just wanted a new player to be given a non-biased recommendation on the various scales, rather than jump to the standard conclusion about the smaller scales. Remember that WWII micro-armour is pretty small (less than 1 inch long), and is still considered to be quite usable for gaming. That doesn't take anything away from the players that prefer 15mm for WWII, of course.

Please note that I am speaking from actual viewing experience here. I own models and have actually played miniatures games with all these scales (1:1200, 1:2400, 1:3000, 1:4800, 1:6000).

BTW, there's nothing wrong with 1:3000, and your 1:3000 WWI images are very impressive. From the initial post, I suspect that "jam1234" will probably try a larger scale initially. Perhaps later, when he gets some modeling skills, he may want to try 1:6000 as well.

I use 1:6000 and 1:3000. Both are cheap enough to buy in bulk and both have their uses. I've conducted convoy duties with Flower class covettes in 1:6000, the Flowers are about 4mm (1/4") long and the U boats are little slithers of metal. BUT when you get up close and personal and play 1 on 1 on a small table, they work superbly.

picture

picture

1:3000 is great for playing on the bigger tables with more people involved.

picture

I think a lot of the 1:6000 ships have more detail than the 1:3000 ones…

If you're new to naval then the 1:3000 will probably be easier to paint and find an opponent with an enemy fleet. But with 1:6000 you can buy both fleets!

I'd say try them both, it's not like land warfare where you need to invest in a lot of scenery… A blue cloth works well enough for both scales. The few little bits of scenics you need will work in both scales – torpedo markers, splash markers and smoke counters. The only size specific ones are wrecks and not everyone uses them.

Si

Reviewing the original question specifically I'd go for at least 1:3000, as you have the luxury of a nice big table.

Si

Hey Soulmage,

I really like your basing for Grand Fleets. What do you use for smaller ships? Or is everything based on 4x1" bases?

Do you have a template for printing those lovely ship titles?

I noticed you have a different basing method for Victory at Sea? Why the change?

I am just getting into VAS and looking for the best basing method.

Actually the pics you see are on 3x1 bases. WWI ships will fit on 3x1s. . . but if you get into WWII, with the larger sizes you'll want 4x1s.

For the titles I just made a table in word that and set the length of the cells to 3", pasted in some little flag graphics, and typed the name in. Then printed them and cut them out.

The change in basing was because I learned what worked better. I started out using GW regimental bases because I had seen somebody else with them. Then I switched to the Litko bases when I changed scales. I like the Litko bases better.

As far as smaller bases for smaller ships. . .

I prefer to base all ships on the same sized base for three reasons. . .

1. Its cheaper to have only 1 sized base

2. It makes everything nice and uniform, they look better, and making labels is nice and easy.

3. It preserves the relative scale perspective. If you base smaller ships on smaller bases, all the sizes will tend to blur when looking at them on the tabletop. But if you have a little light cruiser, mounted on the same size base as a big battleship, the size difference will just right out at you. That's how I like it. . . YMMV.

Soulmage,

Thanks for your reply. Most interesting. My only thought on the 4x1 base for all is that there is a lot of open space for a smaller ship. I was thinking 3" for smaller ships and maybe 2" for subs etc.

Litko bases, they list .08 mm, 3mm and 1.5 mm Are yours 1.5 mm thickness?