"British Fusiliers 1811" Topic

G'Day,
Fusilier battalions had 1 light company and the other 9 companies were called 'Grenadier' companies.
I had a nagging thought I read somewhere last century that the Fusiliers uniform was slightly different. Did the Fusiliers all have 'wings' on their uniform? (As per the grenadier companies in the line battalions).

I have never heard that Fusilier centre companies were called Grenadiers…possibly this could have been pre-napoleonics ?

Also, I would not rate them much higher (if at all) than ordinary Line btlns, this discussion was up here on TMP earlier this year. They were formally known as Elite the previous century but by 1808-1815 they were no different than the Line regiments as far as I know.

Regards,
Shane

TMP link

Not only no different from line regiments, but dressed substantially the same, as they did not usually wear their bearskin caps on campaign.

I'm not sure how typical the 7th was, but during the period 1789-1801 when their colonel/chef was Queen Victoria's father, all NCOs and fusiliers wore wings – rank epaulettes being worn over the top of the wing(s) – and the flank companies were known as "Right Flank" and "Left Flank" (as they often are in the modern British Army) rather than "Grenadiers" and "Light Infantry" following a specific order to this effect from the colonel himself. It appears that at least nine companies wore white plumes; whether or not the "Left Flank" company had green plumes is not clear.

In all fusilier regiments, the most junior subalterns were 2nd Lieutenants, not Ensigns.

Thats right Shane, they are as standard as any other Brit line battalion at this time. I just cannot remember that uniform detail. But apart from the light, the 'centre' companies and right-flank company are called 'grenadiers'. That may be a holdover from the previous century. (Which might be why a later writer made the assumption that they were an 'Elite' in the terms of other armies 'Elite', just because of the regimental terminology).

Anyway, they went hard at Albuera and in further service during the Peninsula, so good on them, just need to find out that detail before I go and buy the figures to produce the brigade.

B

SM, that post was almost simultaneous with mine. What you got there is that nagging little detail – now need to find out if Queen Vics dad's order became a regimental distinction that was carried through to at least 1811.
B

link

I am starting to wonder if you are correct and that all Fusiliers wore a Racoon skin cap into battle, 100 ten companies?

Shane

My vote (from what little I know) is that they didnt wear the bearskin hats other than on ceremonial occasions.
I have seen contemporary paintings with British troops depicted at Waterloo in bearskins but I think this was an error on the part of the painter.
I wonder where they kept these hats when not in use.I ask as i have just been painting some French Chassuers a Pied where the figures have the extra stripey canvass bag on the top of the rolled up greatcoat in which I believe their bearskin was kept when not in use.
Did Fusiliers have something similar?

Fusiliers on campaign wore the stovepipe cap, not the bearskin, much like grenadier companies of other line regiments. There are a number of misleading drawings/ paintings, notably by Mr Caton- Woodville that suggest otherwise. On Home Service, the fusiliers and grenadiers would wear their respective bearskins; a picture of the 29th Worcestershire Regt grenadier on duty at Windsor by Charles Hamilton Smith springs to mind.

The fusiliers wore a shorter cap than that of the bearskinned grenadiers. I'm not aware that the caps were racoon skin, but I'd be intereted to hear of a c=source along those lines since it makes the fusiliers even more exotic (racoons would have been difficult to come by I would have thought given they come from North America).

All companies had wings. This also applies for the 23rd Welch Fusileers with whom the 7th were brigaded during the Peninsular War for a time. The same for the Scots Fusiliers as well I would have thought, 21st Foot I think? I have never heard of a fusilier referred to as a grenadier and would be interested where this comes from.

I can only think that Old Glory do a range so that fusilier regiments look more sexy, or for Home Service battles with Luddites and the like! I've certainly seen photos of Lancashire Fusliers ( during the Napolenic Wars the 20th Devonshire Regt.) wearing the similar cap in 1912 when they were called out onto the streets of Howe Bridge, Atherton, Lancs to keep the miners in check (my great grandad amongst them).

Jon Kelleher

Thx Jon, nicely cleared up

A few links to the raccoon cap question :

link

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusilier

link

answers.com/topic/bearskin

link

Shane

My recollection would be:

23rd Swallow-winged quartered epauletttes

7th Bearskins and Swallow-winged quartered epaulettes

71st Swallow-winged quartered epauletttes

Can't think why Fusiliers wuld be called Grenadiers. Back in the 18th century they were two entirely different functions.

Fusiliers wouldn't have had grenades since they were originally artillery guards, and grenades don't mix well with black powder.

I think it is purely because the Fusiliers originally wore the Bear Skin cap (shorter racoon version) for all ranks thus looking like Grenadiers they maybe were thought to be the same….dunno

It was given as an honour, albeit one that has been long long forgotten …

I follow Fred Vietmeyer in all things Napoleonic. His general rule was that if a unit looked like it was elite, treat it as elite.

Thus for Column Line and Square, he gave Fusiliers the same capabilities as Grenadiers – +1 for shooting and melee, and a 2 for vulnerability (line=1, cuirassiers = 4). Guard, with bearskins would be +2 shooting and melee and 3 for vulnerability. Morale of Grenadiers and Fusilers is 2 points better than line.

This is for the sake of gaming, who knows how well they actually fought. The British have only a few elite grenadiers in the line battalions, and seldom converged these. There were only a couple of Guard regiments in combat so a fusilier battalion was a nice support unit to have on hand when up against French elites and guards.

They are not descended from grenadier regiments but as noted from units equipped with fusils -- flintlock muskets -- instead of matchlocks, to protect artillery. This was something of an elite position.

Why not let them be elites for British in games? Strange, in French army fusiliers are the line center company, and in Prussian they are light infantry.

Bob,

I have to disagree, from what I have read about them they were Elite the century B4 because of their role but this had faded by the Napoleonic wars. Their recruitment and height requirements etc were no different than the Line, this is stated by several historians etc. I even read in Nosworthy's book a situation where one of the Fusilier regiments broke in line because it was made up of mostly new recruits, I can't recall what battle or which Fusilier regiment but it is there.

I, long ago decided to look at the British Elite question much differently as follows :

Guards campaign strength – Guards (A Class)
Guards Full strength – Elite (B/Elite)

Royal Regiments campaign strength – Elite (B/Elite)
Royal Regiments Full strength – Veterans – (B Class)

Line Regiments low campaign strength – Elite (B/Elite)
Line Regiments campaign strength – Veteran (B Class)
Line Regiments Full strength – Regular (C Class)

We basically say that the Line Regiments can run the entire spectrum of Eliteness depending on length of service while Guards Regiments begin at a higher level due to their prior training and drill requirements coupled with the hight and other requirements of the recruited men, much like French Young Guard.

Highlander Regiments we deem the same as the Line Regiments but they have their own statistics as well in the rules.

Royal Regiments I found out long ago were given the "Royal" status because of prior service and feats of bravery and honour, I have read they were see as a cut above the rest. We rate them as such in the rules by giving them a starting Class level of Veteran even at Full strength, after campaigning for awhile they rise again to Elite status thus more quickly than your average Line Regiment.

Fusiliers we decided not to rate any differently than the rest of the Line, however, from memory at least one of the three Fusilier regiments (if not all three) were Royal anyway, thus they fit directly into our "Royal" classifications thus are deemed a cut above the rest.

2nd Battalions of each regiment start out as one level below their 1st battalion brethren in the same regiments and can rise up the Class ladder with campaigning and losses, eventually becoming Veterans and eventually Elite in their own time.

It was Bruce Quarrie and his rules back in the 70's and early 80's which first rated the Fusiliers much higher than they should have been but war gaming was still relatively young in those days and rating troops was (and still is) not an exact science. One person's or groups view of rating particular troops will not always be the same as another's, everything is relative and one much be careful not to make a particular troop type Elite undeservedly.

I think his is the case with Fusiliers, tradition and history especially in the British army, the previous century they did have a purpose and were Elite but by the Nappy wars this had long since faded away. They did wear racoon Grenadier caps at home and looked like Grenadiers thus one can believe they had an Elite status but in reality they were no different than the average run of the mill Line regiment by 1808 except for any Royal status placed on them. We in our set acknowledge this but having blue cuffs and Royal rating gives them an Eliteness rating only one step above typical Line regiments, not Elite which is a totally different thing.

I am only ranting here because I have recently gone through this exact excersize and came to the above conclusions based on the reserch I conducted with the help of many posters here. I strongly appose rating troops above their actual level of Eliteness which can give wrong impressions of these troops and their battlefield ability.

Yes, they were brigaded together and yes they were obviously good troops and rating them is pretty much relative to the number of Troop Quality levels your rules has. Luckily in my rules for us classifications ratings of individual btlns can actually change with campaigning and strengths so we can have Fusilier btlns at Elite class but this is usually after long campaigning and active service. But average Line btlns can rise just as easily if the same criteria is met.

Regards,
Shane

I had the notion that all companies save the light had white cap plumes, but I'm demmed if I remember where this came from.

I wasn't concerned with how to class them, just the representation. The 'Grenadier' title for the centre companies and right flank company is an old honorific – the left flank or 'light' company were called 'fusiliers', just to mess our 21stC. heads up. The regiments are of course known as 'fusiliers' as a hold over, the brigade was known as 'the fusilier brigade', with the regts deliberatley brigaded to form it (which may mean they were highly regarded, at least in their own army); the fuzzy-warm furry hats were not worn on operations (were also definently koala, not racoon – haha, sorry), to the contrary of several 'contemporary' paintings and near-contemporary prints.
But I'm sure from reading all this Lord Muck will be happy to have Myer's Fusilier brigade with wing epaulettes.
Thanks,
B

<<It was Bruce Quarrie and his rules back in the 70's and early 80's which first rated the Fusiliers much higher than they should have been but war gaming was still relatively young in those days and rating troops was (and still is) not an exact science………But average Line btlns can rise just as easily if the same criteria is met.>>

Entirely agree. The Fusilier regiments under Myers had seen little action since the AWI; more deserving of elite status might be Mackinnon's brigade of Picton's division – 45th, 74th and 88th.

As regards caps, the 1768 and 1802 Warrants prescribed bearskin – as for the grenadiers, but slightly smaller. The 7th was in Canada from 1790 to 1806 (1st Bn) and 1809 (2nd Bn) and this is possibly where the tradition of using racoonskins came from. The 21st and 23rd served mainly in Europe or the Caribbean from 1783-1803 and probably still had bearskins.

The 23rd definitely had a grenadier company in 1809, as it is mentioned in the siege and capture of Martinique, so the Left Flank/Right Flank thing was probably unique to the 7th Foot (Royal Fusiliers).

regarding appearance of fusiliers, a 23rd Foot Fusilier at plate 7, Phillip Haythornthwaite's "Uniforms of the Peninsular Wars", illustrated by Mike Chappell, is shown to wear the fusilier cap. Mr H indicates that at the beginning of campaigning, the 23rd ( at least the NCOs) wore the cap before it was replaced with the stovepipe cap – where this information comes from isn't clear..

It would seem that in the 23rd Regiment at least, the right flank company was referred to as Grenadiers. Lieutenant Hill wrote to his mother on the 22nd May 1811 describing Albuera, and speaks of the Grenadiers of his regiment reserving their fire during a cavalry attack. He is clearly referring to a single company.

With regard to the bearskins, John Cooper enlisted in the 7th Fusileers in 1806, and stated that when in full dress uniform: "On his head he wore a cap covered with heel-ball, polished like a mirror" which hardly sounds like a bearskin to me.

"Entirely agree. The Fusilier regiments under Myers had seen little action since the AWI; more deserving of elite status might be Mackinnon's brigade of Picton's division – 45th, 74th and 88th"

Good point Ive often thought the 45th(especially)and the 74th are often neglected and underated…