"Why the Germans?" Topic

[Quote]After all, it was we Brits that invented the concentration camp.

Regretfully no. It was we Spanish who used it first in Cuba in the 1870's. Shameful as it is that's the truth. And even if they were not "extermination camps" the lack of interest of the Spanish authorities made of the camps a hell in earth for the inmates. I've seen the photographs and it's like looking at Mathausen or Bergen-Belsen.

Every nation has a lot of things to be ashamed of. And the heroes are not so many as we believe.

Frans said: "Seen through your coloured spectacles maybe."

Search around for anybody else sharing your bizarre views then, and see who agrees with you. So far I haven't seen anybody springing to your 'genocide is a grey area' argument.

And I would suggest that before you attempt to suggest anybody else has a biased viewpoint you check their nickname. I'm not called "PIAT Old Bear" for example…

Funny thing-- Keith, Old Bear, and I apparently have the same prescription!

Well, we should all remember that Hitler gained power without having a popular mandate…….and also at a time his popular and minority vote was actually declining.

And everyone should remember the universe was so big, somewhere, someone had to be called……….

darth floppy bunny

Well, I play the Germans because, from a gaming standpoint, you can do Eastern Front, Desert, Italy, and Europe, from 1939 to 1945. It's kind of odd though, for in every other game system, I choose the "good guys". But for WW1 and WW2, it's always the Germans. I have U.S. and Russian forces for WW2, but I prefer to play the Germans. Ideology aside, I seem to have more fun playing the Germans. They were usually outnumbered and undersupplied, but fought tenaciously, due in part to superior training and discipline. No, they weren't supermen, but they usually acquitted themselves well in battle.

Allen, I think it was the Sith

The zombie thread – the thread that woudln't die.
Get a stake, find the heart – or is that shoot it in the head?

Yes, very surprising to see it back on the front page.

As Saber6 says, must be a Sith plot.

Must be a slow week.

mjc

Definitely deja vu…

It's a plot by the Evil Nazis, I tells ya!

IT LIVES!

I shall rise again! RISE AGAIN!!! Bwahahaha… Seriously, I was never expecting this thread to reach this scale and intensity.

"IT LIVES!"

That which is already dead…..

If Woody had gone straight to the police…

Is this the longest thread on TMP yet?

Perhaps it is a thread which will last 1000 years!

The zombie thread – the thread that woudln't die.
Get a stake, find the heart – or is that shoot it in the head?

Nuking it from the orbit would be the only way to be sure…

Griefbringer

This is the recurring thread that makes Napoleonics look good.

"Is this the longest thread on TMP yet?"

Not even close. Of course, many longer ones died with the nuked boards….

Shame. Can't say I've ever seen a thread stretch to four pages, but perhaps I've lead a sheltered life.

I think I prefer the idea that it is a thread which will last 1000 years to a Sith plot.

"You started it"
"Oh no ve didn't"
"Yes you did, you invaded Poland".

One thread over on the Nappy, 18th Century, Renaissance and Medieval discussion boards, went to nine pages. TMP link Maybe we can find a way to perform necromancy on it too? >:D

There's a much longer thread. This is a puppy.

11 pages and over 530 posts was the longest i have seen

"Contains what?" is the longest IIRC.

i want to brag about this thread, but i can't think of anything to say that is controversal enough to keep it going. Nazis suck, but the cool late war panzers in fun camo rule! Nothing that hasn't been said before.

What about Nazis driving late war panzer in fun camo?

I keep holding out for an SS medical unit army list with allied Hitler Youth sprogs on tricylces.

It seems to be long enough to break the post meter on TMP – it displays it as containing 8 posts!

"The thing you've got to know is,
Everything is show biz."
--Adolph Hitler, in "The Producers"

Not your usual historical source, but there is a certain element of truth in Hitler's lines.

Consider rockets. The Americans invent and field this really nifty rocket with a shaped charge on the front to cut through tank armor, we hand it out to our infantrymen and revolutionize warfare, and we get no credit for it. The Germans copy it in a larger form, put an exotic looking shield on the front, and it is 'cool' and impressive. Just in case anyone in future generations might inadvertently make the connection "Americans = rockets," the Germans field this enormous V-2 rocket and try to terrorize London. Why terrorize London when enemy armies are at the gates? Because the guidance system sucks big time, a target the size of London is the only thing they have a chance of hitting. Yet, American rocketry, Humph! Russians with their Katyushas, bah! British Rocketry? right up there with the Brazilians. Its always going to be the Germans and rockets.

Then there's the Atlantic bow the Germans retrofitted on many of their ships. Show anybody a picture of HMS King George V and a photo of Tirpitz. Obviously, Tirpitz is way faster/sexier!
Grelber

I hate it when people start saying all german soldiers were nazi's and . I know like 3 people on my block who were germans in world war 2. 1 of them won the iron cross and he hated/s hitler with a passion. They were all drafted at the age of 16 in the beggening of the war and non of them had been nazi's. Sorry had to defend them…. you may throw food now…..

"saying all german soldiers were nazi's "

Lets see if we can get this to be the longest thread then.

I'm not sure that anyne has said all German soldiers were nazis, however it is true to say that some Nazis were also German soldiers and the Germany was ruled by the Nazis in WW2 and the German Army did the governments bidding.

"What about Nazis driving late war panzer in fun camo?"

Or Nazis in fun camo driving late war panzers?

lol Martin…yep, those too!

I'm not sure that anyone has said all German soldiers were nazis,……

Quite right, however I think that Bigfootevan is correct in pointing out that the terms "german soldier" and "nazi" are used interchangeably on these boards.

For example, some members of the current American Armed Forces are registered Republicans. The current administration is a Republican one. The soldiers currently in Iraq are there due to the policies of the current administration. Does this make the army in Iraq the "Republican Army"? Of course not.

Back on topic I play Germans too. Sorry, but I think they are "cool". I don't play SS, they are not "cool" IMO. My wargaming is for fun and relaxation, therefore I have no Einsatzgruppen killing women and children. My Japanese also do not bayonet or decapitate their prisoners. (However seppeku is tolerated). I'm not interested in having war criminals on my table top, Nazi or otherwise.

Ralph

Consider rockets. The Americans invent and field this really nifty rocket with a shaped charge on the front to cut through tank armor, we hand it out to our infantrymen and revolutionize warfare, and we get no credit for it. The Germans copy it in a larger form, put an exotic looking shield on the front, and it is 'cool' and impressive. Just in case anyone in future generations might inadvertently make the connection "Americans = rockets," the Germans field this enormous V-2 rocket and try to terrorize London. Why terrorize London when enemy armies are at the gates? Because the guidance system sucks big time, a target the size of London is the only thing they have a chance of hitting. Yet, American rocketry, Humph! Russians with their Katyushas, bah! British Rocketry? right up there with the Brazilians. Its always going to be the Germans and rockets.

I doubt the Americans who planned out and executed Operation Overcast would agree with your assessment above. That goes for the Russians too.

Ralph

"The zombie thread – the thread that woudln't die.
Get a stake, find the heart – or is that shoot it in the head?"

I can assure you that fusion plasma weaponry will usually do the trick. Trouble is, this is a WW2 board, so such weapons were not in the inventories of the combatants of WW2…. 'course, we could perhaps *borrow* some Mk XXXVIII BOLOs from the Science Fiction Boards in a pinch…

Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net

"I hate it when people start saying all german soldiers were nazi's and . I know like 3 people on my block who were germans in world war 2. 1 of them won the iron cross and he hated/s hitler with a passion. They were all drafted at the age of 16 in the beggening of the war and non of them had been nazi's. Sorry had to defend them…. you may throw food now….."

No food being thrown, by me at least, but you do raise one of those points that keeps WW2 such an emotive subject, even for those of us who weren't born until long after the conflict.

I'd agree that not all Germans were Nazis, and likewise add that not all Nazis were German. What percentage of the German population were committed Nazis at any given time during the regime, I wouldn't even hazard a guess at (I doubt there was much in the way of government satisfaction polling under Goebbels). However, there was sufficient support to give the Nazi regime a foothold to gain power, and little in the way of opposition when they moved to consolidate that power.

I think what irks some people is when the argument that not all Germans were Nazis becomes one of only a minority of Germans were Nazis, and they committed all the atrocities. Nazism was not some fringe cult movement, it enveloped an entire nation, one not known for throwing off the shackles of conformity at the drop of a hat, and from there devoured the bulk of mainland Europe and beyond into the East. That wasn't done by a handful of rabid Nazis and a majority of convienently obdient Germans who were only obeying orders. It was done by a combination of Nazis seeking to fulfil the goals of their party and its leader, by Germans who were convinced the Reds were coming for them anyway, by Germans who felt they were fighting for their country, and as in any dictatorship by those with no power to turn events as an individual who obeyed rather than themselves become a victim.

Nazism and the Germany of the 1930s and 1940s cannot realistically be separated, though there remain some who strive to do so, and they're not all German. That's what keeps topics like this going for almost 200 posts (are we there yet?!) because the opposite view doesn't want to concede that point because it is vital to understanding the conflict. The utter speed with which Nazism took hold in Germany, and the evolution from concentration camps to mass death camps IN AROUND A DECADE, is both fascinating and terrifying. The sheer scale and mechanical efficiency with which the slaughter was enacted remain the most chilling testament to man's ability to create Hell on earth given the right circumstances.

That's why we don't want to give the Nazis a break, and I hope we never will.

Now if you'll excuse me there's a message from the Empreor on my holographic answer machine, something about a shed load of Marines in power armour on their way over here…

"Now if you'll excuse me there's a message from the Empreor on my holographic answer machine, something about a shed load of Marines in power armour on their way over here…"

Which means there's already a pair of Alexander The Great class battleships and three dozen Stonewall Jackson class battlecruisers in orbit over his location…. time to don your black goggles and retire to the shelters, people….

Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net

I confess I get rather irked with the style of modern historians, particularly on TV, who insist on referring to the Germans in WW2 as 'Nazis', as if this somehow exonerates all those who went along with Hitler, presumably for the military glory in the case of many of the generals.

I don't particularly hate Germans, and in all probability have as little regard for the Americans, our so-called 'special friends', who conveniently and knowingly screwed us into the ground on the way to becoming a superpower themselves. Maybe that's why I don't mind playing Germans against Americans or Russians. I'm never really happy about playing them against British though. I wonder if I'm unique in that respect.

Gary Kennedy,

Thanks for a balanced treatment of a difficult, and as you say, "emotive" topic. I agree with the gist of your message but wish to challenge one of your statements:

Nazism was not some fringe cult movement, it enveloped an entire nation, one not known for throwing off the shackles of conformity at the drop of a hat, and from there devoured the bulk of mainland Europe and beyond into the East. That wasn't done by a handful of rabid Nazis and a majority of conveniently obedient Germans who were only obeying orders.

Certainly the Nazis did not get themselves elected in the thirties by suggesting to the German public that it was, somehow necessary to kill millions of people. The election issues centered around the dire state of the German economy and the perceived inequities that were a direct result of the Versailles Treaty. These issues were near and dear to most Germans, even those opposed to Nazism.

I think it is correct to say that the practices that forever link Nazism with infamy were actually developed by a very small handful of men and ratified at the Wannsee Conference. Most of us know this was the brainchild of a particular psychopathic individual named Reinhard Heydrich. Alas, to be put into practice, it did need a large amount of "conveniently obedient Germans" after all. This, of course exonerates no one.

Ralph

Heydrich may be one of the biggest enigmas in history. he's the Nazi version of James Dean. Everybody has a theory about him but he died too soon for anything like a rounded picture to develop.

My take is a simple one: I think he was simply totally 'on message', as modern biz-speak would have it. Given the job to do, he simply went about doing it as if human beings, or more specifically, non-Aryan people, were no better than baked beans.

As a man everything written suggests he was terrifying, and if Branagh's portrayal is anything to go by in Conspiracy then such was the case. To simply sideline him with a one-line definition is shallow, however. Chances are he would have been Hitler's successor. Himmler was allegedly scared of him. He flew fighters on the Russian front on his leave, played the violin to a very high standard and was doing so well in Czechoslovakia with his carrot and stick routine that we had to whack him ASAP.

It's conceivable that he may just have been the most dangerous man in the world at the time. That's a high statement to make, but he wasn't potty like Hitler or a runt like Himmler, quite the opposite in fact.

Damned lucky we nailed him when we did, I'd say.

"Search around for anybody else sharing your bizarre views then, and see who agrees with you. So far I haven't seen anybody springing to your 'genocide is a grey area' argument"

I never said genocide was a "grey area", genocide is definitely black, but it was only a part of German WW2 history, it's what makes the mix dark grey instead of plain grey.
And concerning those who do or do not share my "bizarre views"; in my experience those that do share my view on WW2 history won't vocalize it easily because they know how people like you will react on it. I chose to endure the inevitable ridicule and contempt because I think it is important to let those who aren't indoctrinated yet know that your sides black and white view of WW2 history isn't an unchallenged one.

"And I would suggest that before you attempt to suggest anybody else has a biased viewpoint you check their nickname. I'm not called "PIAT Old Bear" for example…"

Ah yes, now choosing a nickname becomes a political statement and everybody who's nickname has something German in it must therefore be a Nazi-apologiser.
Rather sad you don't see that it is the way in which you yourself generalize people combined with your inability to see things in other colours than black and white which makes genocide possible in the first place.
By linking the horrors inflicted by the Nazi-regime to some unique evilness inherent to the German people you are in effect denying your own people could also fall for such a regime, which I consider a rather dangerous way of thinking.
In the right circumstances any people on this planet would be vulnerable to the likes of Adolf Hitler, and men like you would be the easiest targets for the likes of Goebels.

Greetings, Frans.

Well said Frans.

By linking the horrors inflicted by the Nazi-regime to some unique evilness inherent to the German people you are in effect denying your own people could also fall for such a regime, which I consider a rather dangerous way of thinking.

I agree completely. I will have to mention the religion of this person to get it in context, sorry. I once knew a young Jew(24) in Mexico. He hated Germans with a passion, and would tell anybody who would listen how they were "genetically evil", and how the world would be a better place if we "dropped an H-bomb on the lot of them". I was speechless. He was completely unaware that he was advocating Nazi reasonings and even solutions. He was clearly the victim of propaganda and indoctrination, that while understandable, is plain wrong.
While not on that scale, I see some TMP members that seem to share the same way of thinking: We are good, our enemies are (were) certainly evil, and anything we can possibly do (did) to them is justified.
I have not seen anyone here condoning the Holocaust or Nazi and German war crimes. However, the Allies did some questionable things too. For example, The RAF's bombing of civilians did very little to hasten the end of the war. It did not work during the London blitz, and did not work in Germany. It only made a bloody war bloodier. Those bombs could have been dropped on oilfields, which would have had a an impact on german logistics. Notice that I am not blaming the aircrews, which had a very difficult and dangerous job. The blame sits squarely on Bomber Harris' shoulders. And in the end, he tried to do his job the best he could.
My point is, committing atrocities on our enemies because they did worse is morally bankrupt.

I totally fail to see how any morally questionable act, be it bombing civilians, or whatever, can EVER be compared to, in the 20th Century, hanging every man in a French village, or herding all the residents into a church and burning it down, or machine gunning hundreds of thousands of surrendered prisoners, or raising specialist units who sole job it is is to execute, again, thousands of people, to ultimatly, deciding an ENTIRE race of people should be exterminated. A Russian, American, or British officer looking the other way, as a dozen SS camp guards are shot out of hand by their men, although 'wrong', is nothing compared the evil that was the Nazi ideal.

OK, let me make this simpler: Morally deplorable acts-scale 1-10
Final Solution – 10
Reprisals and executions on civilians – 9
Torture and killing of soldiers – 8
Bombing of civilians – 4
Hot blooded execution of concentration camp guards – 1

I did not do a full list, but you get the idea. Certainly Germany and Japan get more points, but the best scenario is not to score any points at all.

For the record: I believe that WWII was the last "just" war, and the world is a better place because the Allies won. Their cause was righteous, some things that they did were not. Loving your country doesn't mean that you cannot question or disagree with it.

I've skipped read through some of this thread, so admit i may have missed it, but I can't recall seeing anyone saying "the Germans deserved everything they got because they are inherently evil".

Did the Western allies make mistakes? God yes, it would've been impossible for them not to given the situation. Am I pleased that men, women and children died in Hamburg and Dresden, do I think they deserved it? No, not anymore than I do those who died in Coventry and Plymouth, or Hiroshima and Nagasaki. As has been said earlier, bombing of cities and civilian populations was expected from day one of the war, there were hundreds of thousands of cardboard coffins stockpiled in London if memory serves, such were the casualties projected. Both sides in fact managed to stay their hand until around a year in before they unleashed that weapon, but once they did there was no turning back. That the allies became extremely proficient at destroying German cities and continued to do so right up until the end of the war will always remain a divisive subject, yet I'm still not about to chuck my Corgi bombers in the bin because of what they 'represent'.

Is it possible to say that the Allies did no wrong and the Axis did no right? To a degree. The Axis countries invaded and occupied numerous nations, some of them sovereign states, others governed by foreign nations already. They did not willingly withdraw from one of them, I don't think they even offered to, but had to be evicted by bomb, bullet and bayonet. Did the Western allies kill civilians of the countries they were attempting to liberate? Yes. Did they deliberately target them with the intent of causing death? Can't think of an instance offhand, but many times they viewed civilian casualties as an unavoidable consequence of their actions. Did the German occupation forces in Europe kill civilians of the countries they occupied? Yes. Did they deliberately target them with the intent of causing death? More often than not, yes, they did. When the Western allies finally crossed into Germany, did they subject the German people to a prolonged period of tyranny? I'm sure you can find plenty of incidences of troops abusing their position to some degree or another, but that was equally true of German occupations, it's just true of people. Did the Western allies institute a program of identifying and interning those of the German military, security and political apparatus they believed to be leading figures of the Nazi regime? Yes. Did they exterminate them out of hand because of what they had done? No. They gave them lawyers and trials; some of them were out of prison rather quickly and some of them were put to death or killed themselves. And after the war in Europe was over, did the Western allies off home and leave German to fend for itself? No, they reconstructed it and helped to establish a fully functioning democracy that's not doing too bad for itself sixty years on.

I don't view the Allies as brave knights mounted on a shiny steed determined to defend democracy to the last, nor the Germans as sneering villains happy to grab the nearest peasant as a human shield. I try to think of them as people, as individuals, most of who were just trying to get on with their lives, provide for their family, start a family, get a decent job, when the war stepped in and gave them a very different fate.

The Axis nations went to war with dreams of conquest and empire. The Western allies went to war in response not to threats of invasion, but actual attacks, either on themselves or nations they had offered to protect. And when the war was over, they did not bleed their former enemies dry but helped them to rebuild. That's difference enough for me to put the Allies in the blue corner and the Axis in the red. Take away the bombing campaigns of the Luftwaffe on one hand and the Allies on the other; is it still shades of grey on how the Allies and Axis prosecuted their very different war aims. If the answer is yes, then I'll just have to shake my head and agree to disagree.

Gary

"By linking the horrors inflicted by the Nazi-regime to some unique evilness inherent to the German people you are in effect denying your own people could also fall for such a regime, which I consider a rather dangerous way of thinking."

Frans, that's just guff. I challenge you to find one time where I have stated that only the Germans could be up for something like this. As it happens see the Burma Raiulroad for details. I have also not ever suggested that my own people might not be susceptible., However we spent most of our time taking the out of Oswald Moseley rather than licking his boots, so we (that would be my country, Britain) are on decently solid ground. Given the choice of signing up to Hitler's dream or standing alone, it's also common historical knowledge what path we chose.

"In the right circumstances any people on this planet would be vulnerable to the likes of Adolf Hitler, and men like you would be the easiest targets for the likes of Goebels."

Now you are just being foolishly offensive because you have nowehere to go with what is a futile and ridiculous argument. And for your information you did in fact imply that genocide was a shade of grey. I suggest you re-read some of your own posts for details.

I used to play the Germans with my army men, in all the video games, in most board games and collect mainly German 1/6 action figures,I know most German soldiers were not Nazis most were inocennts drafted by Hitler(remeber Hitler only got 30% of the vote), Now though i have come to realize I cannot play the Germans since even though they did have brave men who were heros just doing their duty they were protecting a regime that killed millions of jews and gypsies. I never play the Soviets either since they murdered millions of Germans on their ramapge on the Reich.

Ralph,

I agree with the gist of your message but wish to challenge one of your statements:

No, I'd agree that the Nazi party didn't include the Holocaust on their manifesto, that it was something that emerged later on. I do think it's fair to say that they made no secret of the fact they intended to remove certain people from mainstream society if elected, who they deemed undesirable, which was acutally a very long list. And once the 'Final Solution' was initiated, there was no remorse for it, no refrain from it, right up until the end. No challenge from anywhere within.

Gary