"Why the Germans?" Topic

I'm too stunned to really get into just how apalling linking as morally equivalent a deliberate national policy of extermination with what may or may not have been a wise strategic bombing campaign.

In either case, I find it impossible to feel sorry for a nation that began experimenting with the indiscriminate slaughter of civilians through modern technical means long before it became fashionable or widespread. The German battlecruisers at Hartlepool and the Zeppelins over London were long before anyone thought about Hamburg or Dresden. I'm certain the citizens of Coventry, Rotterdam and Warsaw didn't shed any tears when Berlin was bombed. War is nasty, brutal and indiscriminate in its' horror but something is so twisted and bizzare as to be beyond the pale by all standards when you as a matter of cold calculating state policy, start exterminating a segment of your own internal populace to support some sick racial fantasy.

And let's be clear about this, it wasn't just Hitler and six buddies. A majority of the populace was on board with at least the virulent anti-semitism. The Italians and Hungarians among others never had the same depth of national hatred and their response to demands for extraditing their Jewish populations were generally deliberately ineffective except when enforced by German troops.

If no one plays the germans then whom do we play against?

"Why the Germans"

When I saw the topic title I already knew it wouldn't take long for the usual German-bashers to show up, that they wouldn't, as usual, refrain from denigrating people who have no problem representing this country on a WW2 tabletop, and that the topic was going to reach the hundred postings mark with ease.

As soon as the personnel of WW2 Germanys armed forces, the vast majority of whom were simply doing their duty exactly like their colleagues in the armies of other WW2 combatants, get referred to in generalizing and rather crude terms like "evil bastards" by people with a remarkably black and white view on WW2, however, I can't help but challenge their clear disrespect for people who suffered and/or died while performing their duty. The majority of WW2 US and British veterans display(ed) a lot more respect for their former German adversaries than some of their wargaming offspring does.

As some of the preceding posts clearly show the vocal part of the black and white side generally prefers denigrating those who don't share their view and hiding behind the "racism" card over defending their point of view in an open discussion, which is fine by me as they probably already lost their ability to cast an un-biased look on WW2 history anyway, reducing such a discussion to nothing but a needles exercise in wasting time beforehand. My main goal was to show their view isn't an unchallenged one; mission accomplished.

What amazes me btw is why these people are involved with WW2 table topping in the first place, for me table topping is a social event, I can't imagine playing against people I hate.
Maybe they only play against "Germans" players who can show a membership card of "Nazi's Anonymous" and wear T-shirts decorated with slogans clearly stating their disdain of anything German.
What amazes me also is the respect they show to the "defenders of the Motherland", whose commander, Stalin, could rival Hitler with ease. The Red Army committed as many atrocities as the German Wehrmacht did, yet it's men aren't to be considered evil bastards, they are to be considered heroes instead. The amount of prejudice involved is simply shocking.

For the record; I don't have anything against "the British", I even have the deepest respect for the men of Bomber Command who fought and died over Germany, the fact they were actually committing a war-crime doesn't distract from the fact they were courageously performing their duty, to blame are those who issued the orders, not those who obeyed them.

Greetings, Frans.

Im just a wargamer, I have German, US and British units.

When I play WW2 wargames with my sons i usually play the Germans. No particular reason, other than that my sons know from thier school history that the Germans were "the bad guys".

I try to explain to the lads the history of the war and that "real war" is a terrible thing and people die, and that we are just playing and not to take it too seriously – maybe some people here should think about that………

On the whole this has been a good debate, its the reason i like TMP – people can rant and rave without worrying about the political correct lobby closing the debate down.

Remember at the end of the day – its just a game :)

It's just a game indeed.
Which is why it would be nice if people could discuss a topic like this without a bunch of zealots on moral high horses turning it into a pulpit to vent their questionable opinion that al Germans were evil bastards.

Greetings, Frans.

Do you have a persecution complex or something? The lack of perspective here is getting out of hand.

Let's try to stay focused:

The crux of the argument here is this…

What the Nazis did was evil. Comparing it to the Allied bombing campaign is not really viable.

Now let's break down what you said:

When I saw the topic title I already knew it wouldn't take long for the usual German-bashers to show up, that they wouldn't, as usual, refrain from denigrating people who have no problem representing this country on a WW2 tabletop, and that the topic was going to reach the hundred postings mark with ease.

Are you confusing Nazi bashers with German bashers here? Seems like it. I don't recall anyone bad mouthing all Germans. Some have said that a large portion of the German population did support the Nazis efforts against the Jews. That point is valid because we know segments of the German population DID support Hitler, and did support those ideas. Enough to carry out the Holocaust. Christopher Browning might have overstated his case about this, but that some segment of the German population supported the Nazis IS true, even if you don't like that or aren't comfortable with that. (Browning's controversial book "Hitler's Willing Executioners).

As soon as the personnel of WW2 Germanys armed forces, the vast majority of whom were simply doing their duty exactly like their colleagues in the armies of other WW2 combatants, get referred to in generalizing and rather crude terms like "evil bastards" by people with a remarkably black and white view on WW2, however, I can't help but challenge their clear disrespect for people who suffered and/or died while performing their duty. The majority of WW2 US and British veterans display(ed) a lot more respect for their former German adversaries than some of their wargaming offspring does.

I don't recall anyone denigrating the average German soldier's service. At least those with clean hands. But here again, we do know that portions of the Heer were actively involved with the Holocaust, so some of them DID have their hands dirty. And once again, Omer Bartov might have overstated his case about the extent to which the Heer was Nazified, but there is some truth to it as well. I think there are plenty of gamers who respect the German soldier who did his duty to his country. This "disrespect" you seem to be feeling from some here is misplaced it seems. I only see people disrespecting the Nazis and the SS and those who carried out the Holocaust. They WERE evil bastards, so I'm not sure what the problem is. I don't recall anyone saying all Germans were evil bastards.

As some of the preceding posts clearly show the vocal part of the black and white side generally prefers denigrating those who don't share their view and hiding behind the "racism" card over defending their point of view in an open discussion, which is fine by me as they probably already lost their ability to cast an un-biased look on WW2 history anyway, reducing such a discussion to nothing but a needles exercise in wasting time beforehand. My main goal was to show their view isn't an unchallenged one; mission accomplished.

Hmm, again, I don't find racism going on here. Simply calling evil for what it is. If that makes some of us members of a "black and white" crowd who can distinguish between good and evil, then so be it. I think you are mistaking the ability to see black and white with the ability to see ONLY black and white and I don't think that is the case. And when it comes to an unbiased view of WWII: the study of WWII MUST involve the universal moral condemnation of what the Nazis did. That doesn't necessarily mean a universal condemnation for all Germans. Most gamers, especially those interested in WWII, are able to distinguish between a Nazi who participated in the Holocaust and a German. Probably with a much better appreciation than most people on the street I might add.

What amazes me btw is why these people are involved with WW2 table topping in the first place, for me table topping is a social event, I can't imagine playing against people I hate.
Maybe they only play against "Germans" players who can show a membership card of "Nazi's Anonymous" and wear T-shirts decorated with slogans clearly stating their disdain of anything German.

For me, gaming is also a social event. I and many other here who have spoken against you are also able to clearly understand the difference between gaming and reality and also that representation (ie the ability to play the Germans in a game) does not equate to endorsement of what the Nazis did. Some, like John, are not comfortable with playing Germans, and that is definitely a viable and respected position. In fact, he and others who choose not to game Germans or WWII have shown they can respect those who do.

Frans, to be honest I can't imagine playing against people I hate either. But here again you seem to be confusing history and gaming. I don't recall anyone here saying they hated Germans in any capacity at all, especially not gaming. I game with players who are fun. Most others do as well, except perhaps gluttons for punishment. So what exactly does your statement mean? Also, I know of many vets who came home after their experience in Europe with a deep hatred of the Germans in a way no gamer would. The rest of that paragraph just seems to be a bit of hyperbole. Not sure what it is meant to show.

What amazes me also is the respect they show to the "defenders of the Motherland", whose commander, Stalin, could rival Hitler with ease. The Red Army committed as many atrocities as the German Wehrmacht did, yet it's men aren't to be considered evil bastards, they are to be considered heroes instead. The amount of prejudice involved is simply shocking.

Hmm, I look around and I find no defenders of Stalin here. Once again, I am not sure where you are getting this. I see recognition that the Soviets helped defeat the Nazis, but not that the Soviets were morally good. Keep some perspective here: recognizing the good in the Soviets helping defeat the Nazis is not an endorsement of the Soviet system. It is simply the recognition that that help alone, while from a morally repugnant system DID help defeat the evil of the Nazis. Unfortunately we traded one totalitarian system for another, and it's a shame we couldn't have defeated it as well before it overran Europe and locked it in an iron grip. But after millions dead and so much sacrificed it's debatable if that war could have continued and is part of another discussion entirely (one that has happened here on TMP before that was quite enjoyable actually).

For the record; I don't have anything against "the British", I even have the deepest respect for the men of Bomber Command who fought and died over Germany, the fact they were actually committing a war-crime doesn't distract from the fact they were courageously performing their duty, to blame are those who issued the orders, not those who obeyed them.

*shrug. Ok.

"For the record; I don't have anything against "the British", I even have the deepest respect for the men of Bomber Command who fought and died over Germany, the fact they were actually committing a war-crime doesn't distract from the fact they were courageously performing their duty, to blame are those who issued the orders, not those who obeyed them."

Well, Frans, it's your opinion that when we flattened Dresden and the like it was a war crime. However your (I assume you are a German) forefathers introduced us all to the concept of Total War, and personally I have no problem with that. You just have to understand that having taught us we learned quickly and when it came to the crunch we are just as nasty as you are.

A lot of us do however blame the whole of Germany for what happened, and not just Hitler and his half-dozen famous pals. As for former veterans respecting Germans, my dad was a major in the Irish Guards during Market Garden and he hated Germans until the very day he died. It's very hard to respect a people who have completely ballsed up your life.

All that said, unlike John, who I have a lot of time for and we go back a long way in military re-enacting, I don't have any issues with collecting, painting and gaming with any elements of the German armed forces, SS included. For me it's all just a part of history.

And while I'm on a semi-rant, I never quite get wargamers who think war is evil. Why on earth is it your hobby?

And while I'm on a semi-rant, I never quite get wargamers who think war is evil. Why on earth is it your hobby?

He seems to think that not only is war evil (which I can't necessarily disagree with per se) but mostly that there seem to be ONLY shades of evil in war.

Either that or simply that his particular outrage about Dresden somehow warrants a comparison to the Holocaust (not sure that is his intention, but that's what we end up with) to get back at a perceived attacks on all Germans that has him feeling defensive (which I think is a confusion on his part).

But that's my reading.

Oh well, I see I picked up a stifle. Probably from Frans. Guess that's the way it goes. *puts finger in ear lalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalala.

haha.

Still an interesting conversation. No ill will to him from my end. I just can't quite understand his position on this one.

To get back to gaming, it is not the norm to per se refuse to play 'the bad guys'. For most of us, we'll play Germans or Soviets or Allies and happily paint PzKw IV's right along with Shermans and Crusaders. That is almost a neccesity in a hobby where you more often than not have to paint both sides if you want to play. That said, I've no problem with someone who won't play one of the 'bad' bunch provided we can still get a game going.

What is troubling in a gaming context and I think for most of us crosses the line into bad taste and quesy feelings, are the SS T-shirts and psuedo regalia that seems the sole provence of the truly strange.

Tiger porn gaming is really more of a subset of the power gamer than any political admiration and while I may not appreciate someone using 4 Maus, I don't think it is out of misguided admiration, just hard core munchkinism.

"I even have the deepest respect for the men of Bomber Command who fought and died over Germany, the fact they were actually committing a war-crime doesn't distract from the fact they were courageously performing their duty, to blame are those who issued the orders, not those who obeyed them."

a) Strategic bombing was not a war crime in 1940s, in fact it was expected that it would be carried out from the very opening of hostilities, including the use of chemical weapons. No-one was ever prosecuted for conducting bombing raids, nor were they prosecuted for conducting unrestricted submarine warfare.

b) The defence against war crimes of 'only obeying orders' is not valid. Illegal orders are illegal orders and should not be obeyed.

Trying to equate the actions of bomber crews conducting lawful military operations, the with the defence presented by concentration camp guards to justify their behaviour is an invalid comparison. There is no case to answer, and even if there was, 'only obeying orders' would not be a valid defence.

I knew it was a mistake to look back at this thread.

What is the real appeal of playing the Germans in WW2? Perhaps to a degree it is actually the insidious subconscious lure of nazism itself, that little frisson which comes from playing the dark side, a philosophy which appeals to the very worst things inside us and which plunged an entire nation into madness and self destruction. The 'bad' side is always so much more romantic than the goodies.

From a purely plastic/metal point of view…

One possible reason is the German Army reinvented itself a few times during the war. The British and Americans made a conscious effort to streamline and standardise their transport, weapons, uniforms and other sundry kit during 1942. A GI in Italy in 1943 looked pretty much like a GI in Germany in 1945. The German Army introduced new individual and support weapons, new AFVs and new uniforms during 1943 and 1944. My guess is if you like painting (something I was never any good at) then the Germans offer far more options than the Allies.

I put together a large collection of 1/72 plastic figures during my childhood and later on. The impression I had then was that there was a lot more coverage of German kit than Allied. Why, I'm not sure. There were 80 Centaurs used in Normandy, over 250 Sherman Jumbos made, and around 50 Tiger IIs with Porsche turrets. I would wager that of those three examples, the Tiger II Porsche has the most makes of plastic/metal model available today.

Perhaps the focus on minority German equipment has skewed the balance. I think sometimes (History Channel are you listening!) that there is a fascination with what weapons Nazi Germany 'could have' fielded as opposed to what they actually did. A lot of their ideas were taken up postwar by their former enemies, but not all. A weapon was not an automatic success just because it was made in Germany between 1939 and 1945. The Stugs and up-gunned Panzer IVs were more important than the tanks the size of apartment blocks that were dreamt of, no matter how much fun they might be to create in CGI.

There are probably more German figures and models available because they had more looks during the war than the Allies, simple as that, and if you like collecting and painting that has to have an appeal of its own. Gaming, writing or discussing the Second World War without reference to the Germans is impossible. They were the focal point of the conflict in Europe and the Med. I'd have to take down a large portion of my website if I opted for total denial. Wargames would be a lot duller I imagine…

"What have you got Steve?"

"US 29th Infantry! What have you got Dave?"

"Ah, British 3rd Infantry…"

"Right…What shall we play then?"

"Divisional cooperation exercise, Surrey, May 1943?"

That said, if you're collection is solely German, you're library only has German language works by German authors on German units and you can name all the SS Divisions without having to refer to a book, then I'd suggest you are somewhat obsessed.

Sat on my desk while I'm writing this are five 3.75" Clone Troopers from Episode III and no Rebels, which doesn't make me a Sith as far as I'm concerned.

"Sat on my desk while I'm writing this are five 3.75" Clone Troopers from Episode III and no Rebels, which doesn't make me a Sith as far as I'm concerned.2

Yes it does – theres obviously something mentally wrong with you – the empire was EVIL, it committed the most barbarous atrocities and created the most fearsome weapon in the universe which could only be used against civilian targets – The Death Star – shame on you!!!!

lol :-)

Which begs the question…

"Are we the baddies?"

link

A small point, which might be relevant, might not, is that of course the Allied armies (well, the British and US anyway) decided post war that German methods were the ones worth studying in order to defeat the Soviet Union in any post war conflict. Both armies slavishly adopted German methods and organisations, and studied German defensive tactics in order to emulate German successes against Soviet attacks…Curiously one of the most studied examples was the German defence at Goodwod, which allied staff officers decided was a perfect example of how to conduct amobile defence against a vastly superior enemy….Perhaps some of the German tactical worship derives from this??

Richard: But what about all of those contractors on board the second Death Star that were killed when it was destroyed by those "insurrectionists"! They were innocent and those evil "freedom fighters" as they call themselves blew them up!

(Credit where credit is due, this idea is from Clerks).

haha. ;-)

Richard Baber 14 Jun 2008 1:23 p.m. PST
….

On the whole this has been a good debate, its the reason i like TMP – people can rant and rave without worrying about the political correct lobby closing the debate down.

Where have you been? TMP is no longer "the place" where people can rant and rave about politics. Debates get closed down even before they get started.

Frankly, I am surprised that some of the posters on this thread are not serving time in the "kennel."

"However your (I assume you are a German) forefathers introduced us all to the concept of Total War, and personally I have no problem with that."

I'm actually not German, nor have I any family ties leading back to Germany, and if you had looked instead of assumed you would have known that.
I could now go into your own background and how that would relate to your point of view but I won't.

"Oh well, I see I picked up a stifle. Probably from Frans. Guess that's the way it goes."

No, you didn't pick up a "stifle" from Frans.
Frans doesn't stifle people because they don't share his point of view.

I do indeed think war is inherently evil, I also think war can be the lesser evil, which is why I don't condemn war as a principle.
I also make a difference between real war and playing with little tin men on the table top, if the little tin men really suffered I wouldn't be playing wargames, since they don't I do.

War can have a "black" and a "white" side, but historically participants in wars mostly come in different shades of grey, WW2 not being an exception.
As long as its target is the opponents military or his military important industries strategic bombing isn't a war crime indeed, civilian casualties of attacks like these are considered collateral damage and are allowed for. Daylight raids of the 8th air force against Germanys War industry are an example of this; civilian casualties resulting from these attacks are considered collateral damage because the attacks were not aimed against them. Matters change however once the main target of strategic bombing becomes the killing of as many enemy civilians as possible, which is what RAF bomber command was heavily involved in, and which is a war crime.
I never stated the British were as bad as the Nazi's, what I did say was that they, post war, used the holocaust as an excuse for their own war-crimes while the existence of this holocaust wasn't known to them at the time they committed said crimes.
For me this means they are not "white" but "grey", they aren't the untainted heroes of WW2, they had dirt on their hands too.

Considering the "I don't recall anyone bad mouthing all Germans", I do recall a lot of it, in this current Topic I don't even have to read past the fourth posting to find a nice example of it.
On this forum you can freely drool over anything military without anyone taking any offence, regardless of the war crimes the military in question, or those commanding it, were responsible for, unless it happens to be related to WW2 Germany, in which case you're promptly accused of being a nazi worshipper, holocaust apologist, whatever.

Looking at the behaviour of WW2 troops both the German Wehrmacht and the Red Army come of worst, but I see this as a result of the considerably higher levels of indoctrination and battle fatigue these troops were exposed to and not as a result of some inherent evil embedded in their nationality.
Even those who served with the SS shouldn't be generalised as "evil bastards", a lot of them were, but also enough of them were not. During the second halve of the war any German trooper performing above average could be drawn into the SS, saying no wasn't an option.

It would be nice to be able to discuss topics related to the German military without the usual patronising, denigrating, accusing, or even plain abusive remarks.

Greetings, Frans.

Regarding the question embedded in the original post that started this topic; I have collected armies of all the major combatants in the European theatre but I prefer playing the Germans, mainly because I like the look of their armour and because the way they function in most rules sets suits my own playing style best.
Like mentioned before a German army generally offers a much wider choice of uniform and equipment types; compared to a German army a British, US or Soviet army is often a rather dull affair, at least from a visual point of view. Endless rows of plain green T-34´s or Shermans simply can't compete with the wild variety in vehicles and camouflage schemes that form the core of most German tabletop armies.

Greetings, Frans.

Frans, your drooling, stop it.

Sorry John, it won't happen again, within the next five minutes or so ;o)

No, you didn't pick up a "stifle" from Frans.
Frans doesn't stifle people because they don't share his point of view.

Well good. I don't stifle either and for the same reason.

As to the rest? Well, what else is there to say at this point?

*shrugs

WW2 not being an exception.

State sponsored genocide based on religion, race, and/or sexual preference is a shade of grey, is it?

Fascinating.

Iron Ivan Keith 1, Frans 0 (or negative 100 for the above remark).
--
Tim

"Well good. I don't stifle either and for the same reason."

Glad to hear there's still something we agree on ;o)

"State sponsored genocide based on religion, race, and/or sexual preference is a shade of grey, is it?"

A rather dark shade of grey but still a shade of grey yes.
The Nazi's were evil, but could have been even more evil, so they were still grey, black being reserved for some ultimate evil I hope will never see the light of day.

"Iron Ivan Keith 1, Frans 0 (or negative 100 for the above remark)."

I think any judging should be better left to those not so clearly biased as you are.

Greetings, Frans.

Getting back to the original question behind this thread.

Come on, not EVERYONE is "obsessed with the Germans". There are a number of people who take their love of the hobby to the extreme but they are in the minority, whilst a larger number of WW2 gamers daresay collect German forces for more practical and hobby related reasons.

To any wargamer starting WW2 from scratch the Germans offer versatility and value for money.

An Early War German force with the appropriately chosen Panzers (if Panzers are your thing) can historically fight – Poles, Danes, Norwegians, Dutch, Belgians,French, British, Yugoslavs, Greeks and Russians.

The German war machine evolved throughout the war – new weapons, tanks and uniforms. They were also very good at improvisation – reusing captured enemy kit as is or turning it into something half useful – Marders being a good example.

They had a number of different types of formations with an array of specialist vehicles filling recce, engineer and transpot roles. And most famously, but most definitely over rated, they could throw together ad hoc battlegroups at the drop of a hat.

Again, this offers the gamer flexibility, versatility and the opportunity to create almost unique tabletop forces. Many wargamers love to have that little bit of uniqueness and the Germans offer that moreso than say Britih or Amerian formations.

The Germans put great store in camouflage patterns on their vehicles and from mid-war an increasing number of camo uniforms appeared. This makes the Germans a dream for thoe who love paintng miniatures. Again, allowing the gamer to add a degree of uniqueness and personality to his forces in the way that you can't with say Dutch or Belgians.

Of course, many gamers, historians and the general military reader at large fall under the spell of military Top Trumps. It's not just a WW2 German thing but applied throughout miitary history – to condemn those who collect and game with Panthers and Tigers etc is to be blinkered if not ignorant of not just our hobby but the world at large.

To a large degree IMO, the 'allure' of German forces in miniature, comes also from popular culture – the Sven Hassells and Willi Heinrichs, plus a large number of fawning military historians. Remember too, the Germans did a great PR exercise following the war when conflict with the Soviet Union seemed inevitable. If I remember correctly, Greg Novak wrote a superb piece about this in a back issue of Command Post Quarterly. Many of the mistruths about the effectiveness of German combat arms came about at this time in the late forties and early 50's. However they have left a permenant aura of success on all things WW2 German which will naturally appeal to folk and especially gamers.

Waffen SS? Guess it was obvious the thread would take this path. Personally, I hate intolerance regardless of the colour of the T-shirt or model soldiers you choose to play with.

Cheers
Mark

"I'm actually not German, nor have I any family ties leading back to Germany, and if you had looked instead of assumed you would have known that.
I could now go into your own background and how that would relate to your point of view but I won't."

Then stop behaving like an apologist. It's rather wearing. As for the final point you make, that seems a little inane and irrelevant, particularly as I am clearly English and damned proud of it.

"I do indeed think war is inherently evil, I also think war can be the lesser evil, which is why I don't condemn war as a principle.
I also make a difference between real war and playing with little tin men on the table top, if the little tin men really suffered I wouldn't be playing wargames, since they don't I do."

I just read this bit, Frans, so my apologies for replying twice. This is absolute nonsense of the highest order. War is not evil. It's fantastic. it is a subject that has kept me and to my certain knowledge many many others preoccupied throughoutv their adult lives. That makes it more successful than sex. To even attempt to call it evil smacks of wanting one's cake and eating it. Bad things happen in war, we all know that. however good things happen too. You ask all the soldiers who have the sort of close bonds that would never occur in peacetime. The problem we have these days is that ideally people appear to fancy that war would be so much better if we could just get away from the killing part. That ain't going to happen.

But mostly I just find it absurd that anybody would simulate something they found evil.

I'm waiting on some FOW russians to get here so I can paint em I have Germans too.

You guys are all missing the real point!!

sheeswh!

The reason the Germans are popular is their tanks.

I mean come on – would yuo rather have a Sherman or a Tiger?? Hmm??

just say the names…..let "panzer" roll off your tongue……get the "..nzer" bit of it nice 'n gutteral….

Sheramn..Cromwell…T34…yawn…what's to get excited about??

With Tigers and Panthers you can blast the good guys at 3km, PLUS have cool sounding tank names.

From there it's all down hill!! :)

And let's be clear about this, it wasn't just Hitler and six buddies. A majority of the populace was on board with at least the virulent anti-semitism. The Italians and Hungarians among others never had the same depth of national hatred and their response to demands for extraditing their Jewish populations were generally deliberately ineffective except when enforced by German troops.

Except of course there were lots of countries that admired Germany's pre-war anti-semitisim – such as France and Poland (Poland was probably more virulently anti-semitic than Germany in 1939!!). The Dutch were pretty good at rounding up their Jews, and it wasn't until 1942 that the USSR figured it was better to be nice to them than nasty….and then they turned nasty again in 1947……

The USA turned away a boatload of German-Jewish refugees in 1939 on the SS St Louis.

In 1938 the Evian conference noted

..that the involuntary emigration of people in large numbers has become so great that it renders racial and religious problems more acute, increases international unrest, and may hinder seriously the processes of appeasement in international relations

It was attended by most American countries, the US, the UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Switzerland.

And just to add salt….

In 1942 a "Concentration Camp", which was a British invention by the way

No – they were not a British invention.

The British were the ones who first used the phrase, but camps concentrating people into an area were well known before the Boer War where they are popularly (and mistakenly) thought to have originated – the US used them for Native Americans, in Cuba and the Philipines for example.

All the Brits did was to call them concentration camps – a perfectly descriptive term for a camp that concentrates people.

Making the term "concentration camp" synonymous with "death camp" is solely a German achievement.

Germans do look cool, even in their rough late war uniforms.

I understand Hugo Boss designed the SS great coat

I also think Russian look 'cool' and like the contrast in styles between earthy, clunky looking reds and their opponents…

Except of course there were lots of countries that admired Germany's pre-war anti-semitisim

"Admiring" their anti-Semitism is a far cray different than say, oh…I don't know…informally rounding up hundreds of thousands by police forces behind the advance of your army and shooting them in the head (Babbi Yar and other Einsatzgruppen actions), then concentrating them in ghettos and deliberately starving and letting them die, then later, when that doesn't work, rounding them up and gassing them by the millions.

But yeah, that's all just a REALLY deep shade of grey (Frans), or regular 'ol European anti-Semitism. (/Sarcasm)

Pardon me while I puke.

This is my favourite bit from Frans…

"A rather dark shade of grey but still a shade of grey yes.
The Nazi's were evil, but could have been even more evil…"

I'm not sure what the next step from genocide is. Any suggestions anybody?

Recasting. At least the Nazis never did that.

Pat

Im not interested in the pacific, so most of the time, you gotta have Germans on the table.

Is also a good chance to do some completely ragtag thrown-together armies, with a bit of everything. some STG44's, some French tanks from 1940, some Russian "volunteers" and some elite paratroops.

Good times

LOL, Max!

I'm not sure what the next step from genocide is. Any suggestions anybody?

Kicking puppies and eating babies is all I can think of.

But remember, it's a really really really really REALLY dark shade of grey! We don't want to actually stand on principle and cast judgment now do we? REAL evil doesn't exist except in some sort of dark super evil mankind isn't capable of (according to Frans) so best to not start throwing the label "evil" around willy nilly in case that super evil comes along and we need it.

Just being practical. (/sarcasm).

Good point, Keith. It does strike me however that in this moment of crisis we can turn to Humphrey Bogart to clear the matter up. When talking to Ilse in Casablanca he makes a historical point based on Frans' assessment, when he states that in Paris she wore blue and the Germans wore grey…

But what shade of grey, I wonder?

"But what shade of grey, I wonder?"

Perhaps it can be found in Vallejo's new Panzer Aces colours?

Cheers
Mark

"Then stop behaving like an apologist. It's rather wearing. As for the final point you make, that seems a little inane and irrelevant, particularly as I am clearly English and damned proud of it."

I'm apologising nothing, you are.
And regarding my final point; have you ever considered that being raised by a father who "hated Germans until the very day he died", and having grown up to be "English and damned proud of it", might actually colour your view a bit?

Anyway, ridicule has always been popular with those who lack good arguments.

Greetings, Frans.

Recasting. At least the Nazis never did that.

As I recall, they took the Sten and copied it. Trademarks and all.
There is no end to their evil!

Frans said: "I'm apologising nothing, you are."

Good response.

Frans then said: "And regarding my final point; have you ever considered that being raised by a father who "hated Germans until the very day he died", and having grown up to be "English and damned proud of it", might actually colour your view a bit?"

No.

Frans finally said: "Anyway, ridicule has always been popular with those who lack good arguments."

Which is generally the response of someone getting his ass handed to him. You're being ridiculed because you are saying ridiculous things.

"Sat on my desk while I'm writing this are five 3.75" Clone Troopers from Episode III and no Rebels, which doesn't make me a Sith as far as I'm concerned."

You are obviously a Sith sympathizer, an interstellar Vichy collaborator!

No worries: as an old Starguard fan, I can assure you that a full regiment of *powered armour* Federation Marines will be paying you a little *drop in* social call momentarily, to settle yer sorry Sith ! The rest of you lot best cover your eyes, as tactical nuclear munitions will be involved…

And Iron Ivan Keith speaks for me on the whole Nazi vs. German matter; I hate the "Ratzis" and everything they stood for and their modern inheritors stand for today. I do not categorically hate *any* ethnic, religious, or racial group whatsoever. I also equally despise any soldier of any nation that knowingly commits an atrocity of any sort, especially against non-combatants.

Now that that is out of the way, I will reiterate that I own mys hare of WW2 Germans -Waffen SS 11th Division "Totenkopfverbande" to be specific. Evil mean, and rotten to the core of their sick, twisted, fanatical hearts. They're a blast to play against the Red hordes for all the damage they can do to many times their numbers of opponents, and an equal blast to play against 'cause there's so much satisfaction in bringing each and every one of them down, 'cause they're just too "nutzo" to know when to quite and run away to live to fight another day! Mwahahahaahaaaa!!! ***

Cheers!

Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net

***BTW, I happen to be truly evil, not quasi evil like other gamers, so I know my own kind when I see it… the Sith? Bah! Amateurs! Bwaaahahahahaahaahaa!!

Anyway, ridicule has always been popular with those who lack good arguments.

It's even more popular with people who find something ridiculous to laugh at.

"No worries: as an old Starguard fan, I can assure you that a full regiment of *powered armour* Federation Marines will be paying you a little *drop in* social call momentarily, to settle yer sorry Sith ! The rest of you lot best cover your eyes, as tactical nuclear munitions will be involved…"

Ha, I mock you Marines you 'rebel scum' – as my Clone Troopers will be perfectly safe so long as I keep the windows shut! I know an energy shield would be more in keeping with the genre but what with electricity prices the way they are…

"Which is generally the response of someone getting his ass handed to him. You're being ridiculed because you are saying ridiculous things."

Seen through your coloured spectacles maybe.

Greetings, Frans.

"Recasting. At least the Nazis never did that."

Not only pirated the sten but the Bren and the PPSh and I think quite a lot else
"Kicking puppies"

I understand SS officer training involved the cadets being encouraged to rear a puppy then kill it on order to brualise them…

I see this thread is still going.

"I understand SS officer training involved the cadets being encouraged to rear a puppy then kill it on order to brualise them…"

Hmmmm, I doubt that somehow, although with adherents of any mystical S&M fetish death cult, it is hard to say.

"You are obviously a Sith sympathizer"

I have a lot of sympathy for the Sith, they just like things to be neat and orderly.

May the force serve you.

Killing puppies? Boy, they WERE evil.

Who is responsible for the thread necromancy causing this to appear on the fronnt page?

Allen