"Why the Germans?" Topic

It would seem to me that everyone is obsessed with WW2 Germans, but I can't understand why. I ask this not because I find it disgusting that people model them (anyone offended by a tiny blob of plastic or metal has deep rooted problems in my opinion).

The impression I seem to get is that they are 'cooler'. But surely they don't look as cool as, say, the Japanese, Red Devils or Soviet Marines? And Tigers and King Tigers, though impressive, are surely at least equaled by KV tanks or the Joseph Stalins?

This is not a rant. I simply wish to know what is so alluring about the Germans to so many people.

Thanks in advance!

I think you've got it – people just think they look a lot cooler. Obviously your taste differs a bit, that's all.

The main reason Germans have more press is because the veiwing figures are skewed.
When you play Allies you have a choice of British, Soviet or US – all major combatants.
With Axis you get Germans.
If you assume people play Axis vs Allies, mainly in the ETO or EF, then 50% of the activity (in the main) is going to be concerning Germans.
I realise you've got Italians, Japanese, Canadians, Finns, etc, etc – I'm talking gnerally the big common picture.

Also the Germans put a LOT of effort into making sure they had impressive uniforms and propaganda. Their devices were designed to appeal aesthetically. TAllies often took the route of function over form.

Si

They like playing ruthless evil bastards who dress cool.

And, speaking of dressing cool, did you ever see the official photo of Heydrich? He would have a fit if he saw a modern "Nazi", with his tattoos and beer belly.

That's why I am painting Finns, by the way. I get to kill Commies, I dress just as swell as the Nazis (even better, I think), and I am not evil. PLUS, I get to turn on the Nazis!

Most gamers go through their "German Phase" at some point. I know I surely did when I was in my teens and early 20's (a LONG time ago). Part of it is certainly the 'cool factor'. The Germans had the snazziest uniforms, the best looking tanks and planes and ships and for the first half of the war they kicked everyone's butts. And the only thing not to like about them (they were fighting for evil leaders and an evil cause) isn't even a big drawback because since we are just talking about games, it can be fun to play the bad guys. And if you are still a teen or young adult it has the added benefit of horrifying your parents :)

I grew out of my German phase and I guess most gamers do, too. Part of it was a discovery that they really weren't as cool or as tough as they seemed and part was the realization that the coolest uniforms and equipment could not counterbalance the monstrous evil that was the Third Reich.

Some gamers never do grow out of it and for that I'm sure a lot of rules publishers and figure manufacturers are profoundly grateful :)

People like playing the cool-looking bad guys. I always thought the stormtroopers in Star Wars looked cooler then the rebels too.

Maybe it's the wealth of different equipment available to the germans. You can have a 10 men german section all with different uniforms and weapons. On the other hand a US Para section, though looking seriously cool also, is dead boring as everybody looks the same way.

The only infantry troops that look as nice as the german are british airborne.

And russian armor is certainly as cool as german one.

German uniforms were the coolest. Deliberately as state policy. What blond, blue eyed 20 year old wouldn't have wanted to wear that clobber? The frauleins must have got nuts for it.

And although the Germans lost they were far and away the best Army of the war man for man – they took on everyone else and almost won. Wargamers have a "thing" for the elite (viz. popularity of SS miniatures, 95th Rifles in Nappys, SAS/Delta Force in moderns, etc, etc.)

They embody the "Few Vs Many" idea, which in turn feels more "heroic".
and if you want to play Axis in Europe, there's no other choice, really.

Everyone else in town was playing Russians, Brits, or US. There were a couple of guys that had Germans but they were the type that did a lot of talking and never played.

So . . . Germans seemed a natural pick for me.

That said, I play a lot of '41 games. No Tigers, or Panthers or other nasties in those games.

mjc

Speaking of uniforms, didn't the fashion designer Hugo Boss design the uniforms for the SS and Wermacht? I think I read that somewhere…

q>They like playing ruthless evil bastards who dress cool.<q

That is kind of shallow. Not every German was a card bearing Nazi. Germans were conscripted. Those who did not go in the army, went to concentration camps, or were treated as deserters (shot), unlike the Americans or British, which could choose other tasks upon conscription.

And no, I am not a Nazi apologist. It is just hate remarks like "All Germans are Nazis, and all are evil". Do some research…

It has nothing to do with "coolness", uniforms, equipment, or any of the stuff that been mentioned-- I started with Germans strictly because I get to play my stuff more that way! As Boltaction mentioned, the Germans started the war and were the main Axis combatants throughout so they will figure into almost every game.

Hasn't stopped me from getting large Russian, US, British, and Japanese forces, though, and in 15 AND 28mm!

Well, if you want to play the European theater, in general, someone has to play them! They fought nearly everyone so there is no shortage of other nations to play if you don't like using Germans…but again someone has to play them! (except winter war of course-which is a really interesting theater).

Hmmm, I never would have thought of it as "growing out" of playing the Germans. Well, that's just incredibly elitist IMO. Of course, every hobby has the "I listened to that band before they were cool" crowd I guess. I notice the same thing from the "I only play early war, that late war stuff is for kiddies who like big cats" crowd that crops up every so often. (except Leland, his enthusiasm for all things French knows no bounds-he's the man!).

I don't think it's a matter of growing out of it, I think it's just that when introduced to WWII, the natural focus is on the Germans vs. your own nation or one of the main Allies.

It's only later that most WWII gamers realize just how much more is out there. Like early war Poland and France (or Norway and the Low Countries and the Balkans), or North Africa, or Winter War…or the Pacific…you get the idea. So many of us play Germans when we start because they ARE the quintessential bad guy everyone grew up with in the movies in jackboots toting a Schmeisser.

I know I dived into WWII with Germans AND U.S.

I think a lot of it also has to do not necessarily with just the look of the uniforms, but the sheer variety. You can do the early war no Y straps Germans, the SS with their camo, the later war Heer varieties of camo, FJ (early and late), winter troops in great coats, winter parkas, Gebirgs in snow gear, mediterranen troops of all kinds, Luftwaffe Field Division…so much to choose from.

Most armies regulars went through two phases of uniforms and that's about it (exceptions abound of course), or they are a sea of Khaki and that gets…tiresome. Though to be sure, each of these nations usually has specialist or elite troops that can be interesting in uniforms (Brit Paras).

Then again, it's only later you realize how diverse French forces were. Motorized troops (Dragons Portes), Alpine, Colonial troops… the list goes on.

I think there is some validity to the comments about the cool "look" of the Krauts. I don't think there is much to the idea that one force over another is something that "superior" gamers "grow out of". .

Play what you like, and like what you play. It's not a badge of honor to NOT play Germans. We ARE talking about little toy soldiers here.

A couple of points that come to my mind:

1.) They were in the war full-time from the beginning to the end in Europe (after all, they started the whole mess). Many other combatants either drop out early or join in late.

2.) They fought against almost everyone in Europe (including, in late war, most of their former allies).

3.) Lots of written information available (in English) – check out eg. how many Osprey volumes there are on topic. Compare with the amount of material available about Red Army (Cold War definitely did not make it easy for western authors to do accurate research on that, while the Soviet propaganda machine was more interested about using the war as a propaganda tool).

4.) Lots of models out there. Almost every WWII model manufacturer makes Germans of one sort or another. You can probably find a model for almost any of their even more exotic wünder-widgets in almost any scale, especially if it is some late war thingy.

Griefbringer

With a German army, you get to fight everyone (just about!) – they are the orcs of WWII. Your Germans can take on Russians, Yanks, Brits, partisans, even Italians (after Septemer '43). Very versatile.

Plus, as mentioned, snappy uniforms! And, as they are usually outnumbered, you don't need to paint as many of them, compared to (say) a Russian horde.

Beowulf, I am very happy with my prejudices which you decry.
The sainted Wehrmacht had no problems with rounding up Jews or slaughtering civilians. As I recall, Kurt Waldheim was not in the SS.
Plus, THEY STARTED IT.

Defend them all you want. It will not affect my "feelings" one iota, nor will I retract one word.

And, yes, I HAVE done "research". Don't be such a patronizing … person…, and assume that anyone who disagrees with you is deficient in morality, education, or "research".

John the OFM,

Well said, sir.

As far as research goes, pick up a copy of "Ordinary Men : Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution is Poland" by Christopher R. Browning.

I know they were not Wehrmacht but it is a chilling account of the thought process pervasive in Nazi Germany.

BTW – My largest force in 20mm WWII is German followed by Russian. Nothing like two bad guys fighting it out with each other.

Vince

I think part of the attraction is gamers who really wish to have elite armies/forces. In many of the rule books, the Germans are superior base for base than their opponents. If you play FOW for instance, the advantage German infantry have going to ground and being veteran compares favorabily my poor Conscript Soviets who get mowed down every turn.

Plus, the Germans have so many unusual and different vehicles to chose from. My Soviet forces, for instance, are rather stuck for choices during certain periods (mid-war comes to mind).

Finally, while the Germans get those elites they get to deploy everything they have in a battle in most rules. They are frequently outnumberd but have superior equipment, morale, training, etc. As a horde player of Soviets, I can honestly say that I can see the appeal of playing Germans. My Soviets lose over half their number in every game but may overwhelm the Germans. In a straight up even fight (size not points), my Soviets get destroyed every time. The Germans have the thrill of fighting against the horde and tend to win pretty often. Those results make the Germans a good army to collect. My Italians on the other hand rarely are worth it.

Erik

John the OFM,
As long as you are aware of your own prejudices and biases, that's fine.
And a patronizing person surely deserves another. It is you who assumes every german player "like playing ruthless evil bastards who dress cool".

Well, my favourite is early war, and I am interested in the Germans in this period as they fairly consistently beat the living tar out of their opposition, and it was not because of weight of metal. I think this part of the war is seriously underplayed – I am building up a French armoured division in 6 mm right now because no one else in the group wants to square off against the Panzers, so I have to paint up my own opponents

As noted, if you have a German army, no lack of opposition, either

I don't realy like the Germans, I don't like there uniforms, there gear, helmets ect.
I only buy and paint them to have someone to shoot at with my allies.

Leather webbing is just SO 19th century and looks good back them, but they have nothing to do in a WW2 battle field.
the only weapon the germans have that I like is the MG42 other then that I don't realy care for them.

whenever I play a computer game I always play the allies. except if the allies are russian, then I play german

but the good thing about people loving the germans is that then I have someone to shoot at

Folks do miss the CA boards, eh?

It is you who assumes every german player "like playing ruthless evil bastards who dress cool".

No, it was a throwaway smartass reply.
Not every one, but a significant percentage of them. The type who wear "SS Wiking Division European Tour" tee shirts at conventions, and weigh 400 lbs is just a small minority.

BTW, I find the Soviets just as evil, but I am thinking of painting some up for my Finns to shoot at.

They look neat (all bad guys have cool uniforms for some reason). They basically went to war in snappy suit coats while everyone else showed up in cargo pants and a button shirt.

They have cool sounding stuff. Americans have rocket launchers, Germans have a Nebelwerffer. Tank / Panzer. Air Service / Luftwaffe. Paratrooper / fallshimjager. It just sounds neat (assuming your not German, in which case I suppose it just sounds normal).

And most important, they have the most opponents.

John the OFM,

No, it was a throwaway smartass reply.

Then I misunderstood "smartass" for "moral superiority".
Then, just assume my comments had a smiley face after it. And BTW, I am well under 200lbs, and never wear t-shirts with logos.

As mentioned above, top-rate equipment, fielded by professionally trained personnel.

Much of their equipment was cutting edge technology during the day, and is still in use today: MG-42 (= MG3), ballistic missiles, cruise missiles, jet fighters and bombers, sound absorbing material for subs, snorkels for subs, etc.

"And Tigers and King Tigers, though impressive, are surely at least equaled by KV tanks or the Joseph Stalins?"

Actually, not. German optics were far superior in the tanks to those of the Russians, and some of the Russian armor on their tanks tended to be inferior as well.

Gamers with a yen for "cool" German kit lose serious coolness points themselves when they can't spell the German names and designators properly.

Allen

Folks do miss the CA boards, eh?

Not at all. It's just a topic that comes up here once every 6 months or so, and usually the same series of events unfolds.

You can pretty much bet on the following things being said in this topic:

It starts with…

1: Why are so many gamers *obsessed* with Germans.

Starting off on the wrong foot (assuming that German players are obsessed), the conversation quickly goes down hill from here. On a side note, I have only ever known one single German player who I would call "obsessed" with the Germans, and no one I know plays with him-for various other reasons besides just that.

1 is quickly followed by…

2. They have cool stuff, the most variety, they fought everyone yadda yadda yadda.

These observations have merit.

However, 2 often sets off…

3. People who play Germans forget the horrific crimes and how could you play them with a moral conscious etc. etc.

which leads to…

4. Not all Germans were Nazis etc. etc.

Which results in…

5. But the Commies were worse! etc. etc.

and while this is going on, you almost always see…

1a. *I* don't play Germans. I grew up a long time ago, *I* am made from finer materials as a gamer. You youngin's runn off and play with your big kitties.

1a subsection 2. I only play early war. That late war stuff is soooooo *yaaaaaaaaawwwn*.

To be followed by…

2a. Well I play pretty much everything…

2a subsection 2. Stop being elitist!

Followed by…

at least one instance of:

"or not depending"

One dawghousing.

Two bruised egos.

One skinned knee.

One secondary accident from the rubbernecking.

The taking of sides and the gnashing of teeth.

The barometer falling in the teacup and the rising of sea swells.

One incident of the bug.

And at least a few cases of time wasted never to be gotten back.

But that's just the general pattern of this topic. Lots of variations exist that include all, more, or only portions of the above formula.

The above was said with tongue in cheek. No animals were harmed in the making of the post (to borrow a line from Murph).

But hey, the weather isn't so hot today.

How about that local sports team?

Gamers with a yen for "cool" German kit lose serious coolness points themselves when they can't spell the German names and designators properly.

Allen

Coolness Points(tm) will also be deducted for pointing out aforementioned misspellings of names and designations.

A rhetorical question surely. Everyone knows the cool kids play '40 French. Better kit, better camo job, better allies and kepis!.

they were far and away the best Army of the war man for man

I'm sure there are many who would disagree with that assessment. You can say, with a straight face, that the Germans were the most disciplined. But you can also say that the British were the most tenacious, the Americans the most innovative, the Russians the most determined. Some of those may even be true. At various times and places. Which one counts for the most towards "best . . . man for man"? Hard to say.

I'm of the opinion, after many years of reading and having done my graduate work on a study of the German Army of WWII, that the Germans were lucky in the early stages of the war and were thus able to learn and adapt. They were hampered by bad strategic decisions and declining training, both of which define the context of "best . . . man for man". And at the end, they were probably worse than their opponents, on the average.

When I was younger I played German because I thought the uniforms were cool, that's for sure. That's why I never played Brits. Going back to how my WW2 Brit Action Man looked – I hated that blouse!

Nowadays I play whichever side my son doesn't want to play. He's mostly Allies though since he found out his granddad was sitting just behind Michael Caine at the Bridge Too Far meeting. In other words my father was Irish Guards (and not an actor!). I seem to recall the day I found that out (about 17-18, I seem to remember) was the day that Brit blouse suddenly looked a lot cooler!

Nothing at gaming shows annoys me more though than the guys who wear those SS Divisional tour t-shirts though. Now that smacks of hero-worshipping and glorification.

Next Question: Why do people play Confederates? Or Brits during the Bore (oops) War?

"Folks do miss the CA boards, eh?"

Since when does talking about the 1940's and the German army constitute "current" affairs? Sheesh!

Never ceases to amaze me how painting little lead men, resin tanks, and rolling dice can get people so worked up.

I play Germans by the way and I'm older than most and younger than some……

Nazis/Germans are "the Orcs of WW2"? I thought that Orcs fought everybody because they were attacking in hordes of the things. The Germans were out-numbered better than 20 to 1. I am sure that to German perspective, the hordes of Commies coming at them from the East, and the angry Anglos coming at the from the West, looked like hordes of "Orcs." What with their "uncoolio" (all the same-looking) uniforms and equipment in countless masses. (Hans Ulrich Rudel certainly seemed to think so anyway)

As a kid I thought the Germans looked cooler than anybody else too. The Luger is quite arguably the "sexiest" pistol ever made. The ME 109 and Focke Wulf 190 are symmetric poetry in motion, even when sitting on the ground. The ME 262 is ditto that for jets. Nothing beats the sheer massive symmetry of a Tiger, and Panzer 4's are just plain "cute".

But soon I lost interest in warfare where people die by the scores of thousands in explosions and fireballs and chemical attacks. (I could start a thread on who looked cooler, the Crusaders or the Muslims, but I won't.)

As a kid I thought the Germans looked cooler than anybody else too. The Luger is quite arguably the "sexiest" pistol ever made. The ME 109 and Focke Wulf 190 are symmetric poetry in motion, even when sitting on the ground. The ME 262 is ditto that for jets. Nothing beats the sheer massive symmetry of a Tiger, and Panzer 4's are just plain "cute".

How can you be so WRONG on every point?
the Spitfire and Mustang are much prettier.
As for the Me-262, that is like being the prettiest girl at the graduation with a class size of 3, 2 being boys.
If you want a tank that shouts "wonderful personality", may I suggest a Grant?

I enjoyed reading this thread.

I leaned towards the Germans to start with because of a lot of the points made but mainly that "Few against Many"
plus being against the Russians and the harsh winter warfare.

I think part of it was that I had been in the Canadian Infantry during the Cold War. So with Russia / Warsaw Pact as the foe, and the "Few Against Many" sure comes into play and we were to reinforce Northern Norway so there is harsh the winter.

But as most wargamers we learn as we play and new models come out and we research. So now for Russian Front I have Finns, Hungarians, Romanians, play Italians and maybe some Croations. Not yet but will hopefully research Slovaks also.

What I also like about the Germans as I've learned things is their use of captured equipment. In the Balkans French tanks, 21st Panzer that FOW has come out with the modified French equipment, see photos of Fallschirmjagers with Italian armour and armoured cars. See photos of Italian tanks on the street in the battle of Budapest. etc. etc.

" Luger the sexiest pistol ever made " I see so many people agree with that point of view. Now among one of my top favourites is the broomhandle Mauser. To me it is one of the sexiest pistols, a friend had one with the shoulder stock and wooded case.

Top Gun Ace: By KVs and Stalins equaling Tigers, I didn't so much mean in terms of fighting power, but as in big and brawny appeal.

I got a bunch of jerries so I had opposition for my Brits. Much as I hate nazi germany and its war crimes, Its hard to have WWII Normandy wargames without the dastardly jerries.

Agreeed with Iron Ivan, nice list of events. This discussion is pointless, why do you play with xxxxx when yyyyy are cooler?; for the same reason I prefer Coke over Pepsi.

we offer a lot of german stuff because… it sells! some have assumed we have an affinity for germans…. we do! i have met very few mean germans. you can even see the dichotomy in the "band of brothers" book. the trroopers seemed to respect the germans more than the french. we do not necessarily share that stance….

so we have more german equipment available than western allied. do we sympathize, or are we neo? we also have more russian equipment than western allied. are we commie?

we are neither, as we do not afford ourselves the luxury of choosing any one side. those who would ASSUME, should likely re-learn the lesson of ASS + U + ME. ignorance is not always bliss….

Well, the KVs and the JS tanks weren't bad looking they were not as neat looking as the Panther or King Tiger.

German crews were very well trained. In fact they might be too well trained. Time spent training might be better spent in fighting against the rudimentary trained Soviets.

Reading some of the tankers stories where they lose their tank to damage the crew goes back to Germany. Then training and waiting up to 3 months for their next tank. Seems like a lot of time lost.

From early days, Prussia needed to fight short, sharp wars because there was little gross domestic product or manpower to support long campaigns. For 300 years Prussian and German military science was predictated on winning fast.
They could not do it in the 20th century. What's not to like about winning every time and winning rapidly? But if it was easy everybody would do it. It looks easy, so we all want to try on the German way of war. The easy part is picking up enough miniatures to have the troops. The hard part is making rapid war really work for you on the game board. I've seen good Russian gamers consistently beat Gemans. If you have got the Germans, better hit hard and hit fast. Remember the winter gear.

I have an awful lot of different german armies…..i find them useful facing the different allied armies I have.

>As I recall, Kurt Waldheim was not in the SS.
>Plus, THEY STARTED IT

The '3RD REICH' started it John, not 'they'.
Unless one can prove that every former voter
for the SPD, Zentrum and the likes
(63% of voters for November 1932 election)
did sign upon the plan to invade Poland,
I guess the difference is worth pointing out.

This can't be an excuse for Auchwitz or Dachau,
but it can be an explanation.

Living in a democracy doesn't mean your country
will always be a democracy, not that it has always
been one.
If you just want to play armies from human rights respecting countries, options are few IMHO.

BTW, Finns were allies with the 3rd Reich
right when people get gased by thousands
in death camps everyday.
Not sure they cared much about it.
They had their reasons, you have yours ;-)

""Folks do miss the CA boards, eh?""

Like a mule kick to the head.

Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net

"That's why I am painting Finns, by the way. I get to kill Commies, I dress just as swell as the Nazis (even better, I think), and I am not evil. PLUS, I get to turn on the Nazis!"

Hence why I painted up Italian Bersaglieri; lots of weapons, jaunty rooster feathers in our hats, esprit d'corps, guts under fire, and not saddled with the "stupido" prejudices of the Germans, we get to hit on *every* pretty girl we see, without regard to race, ethnicity, or religious persuasion…

Oh, and after 1943, we get to have a go at the Germans too… and the climate is nicer than Finland in the spring… capiche?

Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net