"Skirmish '08" Topic

To me, this is just unbelievable:

My friends and fellow gamers,

This is just a note to say that I for one will not be attending
Skirmish '08. It was brought to my attention that one of our fellow
gamers wanted to put on an event at Skirmish '08, but was told no,
once the organizers found out that the game was a RPG game;
specifically called "Occult Wars". I know nothing about the game
itself, so I looked online:

"Occult Wars is a set of rules that allow you to fight battles of
good versus evil. You can recreate many of your favourite horror
characters portrayed in books, film and TV. Be they blade wielding
day walkers, or Muffy slaying vampires with the aid of her crew. If
you wish, you can even choose to fight on the side of darkness; have
your own werewolf clan or vampire coven. Be a warlock or witch. You
choose the legends and background to Occult Wars. If your vampires
laugh at crosses and silver then make them that way. If a silver
bullet should send them back to hell then build that in to your
background. The choice of what traits and vulnerabilities your
characters have is up to you. These rules are designed for
flexibility and will not tie you to one person's view of what a
monster should be like".

OK, so I went a bit further and asked some others about the game:

TMP link

From the responses, I don't see a problem.

The American Heritage Dictionary defines "Occult" as:

"Of, relating to, or dealing with supernatural influences,
agencies, or phenomena.
Beyond the realm of human comprehension; inscrutable.
Available only to the initiate; secret: occult lore. See Synonyms at
mysterious.
Hidden from view; concealed
I respect the right of any event organizer to restrict the events
that will take place to those they deem are within the scope of the
event. These restrictions must however be disclosed, and the
Skirmish '08 website mentions nothing about any game type
restrictions:

dfwirregulars.com

The menu of games includes "Sci-Fi"; WWII "Sci-Fi"; and God
forbid, "Pulp Fiction: "Dancing girls! Zombies! Nazis! …" …

Dancing girls? Zombies? Nazis?… But no; sorry, nothing that
includes the work "Occult".

I for one, find an inconsistency here.

The event which was not allowed was:

"Allen;

You'll have to excuse the format, as I cannot use Adobe Acrobat on
this computer. I hope this format works. Here's the synopsis of the
event I'd like to run:

Game Master – Mark Mahan

Session – 2 P. M. (Preferred, if possible. Got a thing for
Steve's gladiator games)

Event Name – Something Rotten in Mesquite

Era – Modern Fantasy

Figures – 25mm

No. of Players – 6

Rules – Occult Wars

Event Description –
Something is not quite right in Old Mesquite, TX. Sightings of
strange creatures roaming at night are prevalent. Strange happenings
at the full moon have been occuring for months and have ranchers
flumoxed. Missing persons reports are on the rise. A cable worker's
chance encounter with an agressive dog in an alley leads to the
discovery of a vampire's nest. Too bad for the Undead: the cable guy
is a member of an elite vampire-slaying consortium dedicated to
eradicating the Undead and their ilk. The Watchers within the group
report the Reborn have been congregating throughout DFW; to what
purpose remains unclear. Under cover of a staged cable outage, the
group prepares to assault the compound and methodically eradicate
all within. Providing backup are some well-intentioned rednecks from
the surrounding area, bent on payback for livestock mutilation, and
a few urban thugs whose stables have been thinned by thirsty Reborn.
Will the stalwart vampire hunters complete their mission? Or will
the creatures of the night repel the forces of righteousness? Come
find out…"

The response that Mark received was;

"Mark,

Thanks for offering to run a game at Skirmish. This event was
always intended to be more-or-less historical games only. We have
strayed off of this requirement to some extent (possibly more than
we should have). I have discussed your game proposal with the other
guys who run the Skirmish show and we don't feel like Occult Wars is
a game system that is appropriate for what we are trying to do.

Also, our 2pm time slot is full; we do not need any more games in
that session. If you possibly have another game you might be able
to run, 9am would be the best time.

Again, thanks for the effort and we hope you understand our position.

thanks,

Allen Eldridge"

Curious, I enquired about running an AE2 game in the 2PM time slot.
After sending two emails to Allen and receiving no response, I sent
him a third, copying Clay Smith and Steve Miller. Amazingly, I
received a response:

"Greg,

No idea what happened to other emails, I did not ever see them, oh
well! I got your emails from today.

We certainly welcome your game.

It is not so much that 2pm is "full" as far as table space (although
I have not laid out the room, I am sure we are OK), it is more a
matter of "game slots" vs. "number of people to plug into game
slots". Right now we have:

9am – 7 events – 40 slots

2pm – 8 events – 56 slots

7pm – 7 events – 38 slots

So, as you can see 2pm is already pretty heavy as far as events and
slots. (these numbers don't count the 2 tourneys). There is not a
whole lot of point in having events with no players to play them.

If you really need to do 2pm, you can, but I think 9am would be my
first choice and 7pm my second choice as far as our needs.

thanks!

Allen"

As we can plainly see, the 2PM time slot was/is not full as Mark was
told, and it seems that the convention organizers decided to censure
his event simply because it was what they deem a "Role Playing Game".

In a time where miniature gaming is on the wane, and the simple fact
that fantasy games and not historical games attract the most people,
I cannot for the life of me understand anyone holding an event that
would preclude a certain audience from the event, particularly when
the event site does not specifically state what will and what will
not be allowed.

This is the epitome of stupidity, in my opinion.

Good luck guys! Continue to think small!

It appears to me you have a severe case of "Lone Star Historical
Miniatures-itus".

Get your shots.

Regards,

Greg Pitts

alea iacta est!

I've never played Occult Wars, but I thought it was a skirmish game. They've obviously got some problem with that kind of game. Too bad. Do historical gamers really have a stick that big up their backsides? Probably not, but these organizers seem to.

I believe in their original announcement, or in one of their mailings, they did mention a preference for keeping to more historical stuff (which seems to even include pulp nowadays). Even if not, they did explain it , quite courteously, in their e-mail reply.

No one would have even known that somebody wanted to run an "unacceptable" game if you had not announced it here. The organizers did indeed disclose their preferences, even if after the fact of your friend thinking up a game to run and contacting them. The schedule they posted makes it clear what games will be available.

Did you then "offer" to run a game just to test them? Was it a genuine offer? They may have decided to accept a game more in line with their wants/needs, but still told you the reasons for 2 pm not being a good time.

Some of the afternoon games (last year) did go wanting for players. Maybe they are trying to avoid that this year.

If the rest of the games are appealing, that would not stop a lot of folks from attending. This is not some great principle to defend, it's just what the guys in charge want to do. I think there are plenty of RPG/non-historical games and cons available that these con organizers not be attacked.

Dear Sir or Madaam(Regiment Games),

No attack, personal or otherwise was made.

I simply stated the non-disputable, verifiable facts of the matter.

Regards,

Greg Pitts

They don't want fantasy games and they feel the 2pm slot is over loaded…seems fair enough to me.

<snip (from GRPitts)>
This is the epitome of stupidity, in my opinion.

Good luck guys! Continue to think small!

It appears to me you have a severe case of "Lone Star Historical
Miniatures-itus".

Get your shots.
<snip>

Okay, now I understand that those are not not attacks. Thanks.

Sounds fair to me, too. Although, they do have Zombies featured on thier website. Go figure…

Don't bring LSHM into this. He quit our group in a huff some time ago. Looks like just another huff to me.

Dave

It appears to me you have a severe case of "Lone Star Historical
Miniatures-itus".

Yeah, I'm calling shenanigans on this one. Purely speaking in defense of the LSHM I've run zombie games, sci-fi, Bugs, etc. at their cons three or four different years.

If it would keep the peace I'll gladly sacrifice my time slot and/or game to facilitate the Occult Wars game. Honestly, I'd do a 7:00 pm slot but I'm usually too blown by then to run what I'd call a decent game. I'm one of the guilty parties for going 'off the rails' with my alien invasion game (although I use pulp rules but I'm a fly by the seat of your pants kind of game master and Howard Whitehouse's rules kind of encourage that) and I'll gladly step aside to allow someone else in.

OK Greg, I'll bite. As a former con and tourney organizer I do agree that they should have published some guidelines and remained consistent in their decisions. However, since they didn't publish set guidelines, that left the final decision up to the organizer's, who do have a financial responsibility to try and schedule games that they believe will result in participation and interest. All of that having been said, I do have to make the following points and ask the following questions:

1. Your post, whether intended to be or not, does come off as being very judgemental and confrontational.

2. If you didn't intend this matter to be confrontational, why did you feel the need to cross-post it to ALMOST EVERY possible board? I mean, seriously, other than trying to rally support for what you perceive as a crusade against Skirmish, since you run Ancients games and this involved a Modern Fantasy Skirmish, why do you believe this would be of interest to Medieval, Renaissance, Napoleonic, 18th century and 19th century historical gamers?

3. How do you perceive this to be an LSHM issue? I do not belong to LSHM, but I do respect their efforts and am co-hosting an event at MCon in November. Since there are many events very similar to the proposed "Occult" event at MCon, why would you feel that this is connected in any way to LSHM?

4. You and I have known each other a long time Greg, about 35 years, and I very much respect your contributions to the hobby and your constant efforts to promote the historical side of the hobby. In this case though Greg, I do think you are over-reacting and somewhat "tilting at windmills". I sincerely hope that your purpose in cross-posting this inflammatory thread was not to persuade people to boycott Skirmish. We have few enough quality venues available in the Southwest today and to try and damage the reputation of one or limit it's potential attendance would be a shame.

5. You copied Clay and Steve to get in touch with Allen, and I too have had problems contacting Allen in the past, but have you tried to actually sit down and talk to Allen and allow him to justify his decision? And was it actually "his" decision or that of a group? Just as you and Mark received courteous answers from Allen, Allen also deserves a courteous request for more information, not a full frontal assault on one of the largest public Forums in wargaming. This is a bit like trying to kill a fly (no disrespect to Allen or Skirmish) with a 12 guage.

6. Unfortunately Greg, Texas is not the "thriving" hub of historical gaming in the Southwest that it once was back in the 70's and 80's. We lost Heritage, we lost Wargames, we lost Yaquinto, we lost DalCon, and we never got Origins back. We lost the Southwest Society of Ancients, we lost the 3rd largest chapter of the US Pike & Shot Society, and we lost Empire. We lost a minimum of 6 large annual Ancients tournaments and 3 Renaissance tournaments and countless local shops with open gaming space and a good assortment of historical products. Many of the reader's of this Forum don't know anything about Texas wargaming, where it once was and where it now is, and don't know anything about Skirmish. Except for the scathing picture that you have painted for them, even if this particular issue didn't concern an event or period they are usually interested in or not. We used to draw gamers from all over the United States to events here Greg, will we again?

Respectfully,
Bill McHenry

Interesting. I have attended the previous two Skirmish one-day cons, and ran STARGUARD! at last year's Skirmish no less, a game that IMHO was well received.

So quite honestly, I find this situation more than a little puzzling, as I recall there was more than one sci-fi/pulp game besides my own…

I must agree with one point however, that of "thinking small." More on this after I quote another poster:

"Unfortunately Greg, Texas is not the "thriving" hub of historical gaming in the Southwest that it once was back in the 70's and 80's. We lost Heritage, we lost Wargames, we lost Yaquinto, we lost DalCon, and we never got Origins back. We lost the Southwest Society of Ancients, we lost the 3rd largest chapter of the US Pike & Shot Society, and we lost Empire. We lost a minimum of 6 large annual Ancients tournaments and 3 Renaissance tournaments and countless local shops with open gaming space and a good assortment of historical products. Many of the reader's of this Forum don't know anything about Texas wargaming, where it once was and where it now is, and don't know anything about Skirmish. Except for the scathing picture that you have painted for them, even if this particular issue didn't concern an event or period they are usually interested in or not. We used to draw gamers from all over the United States to events here Greg, will we again?"

If so, then my answer to you native Texans (I wasn't born in Texas, but I got here as fast as I could!) is the same as I have for anyone who laments the state of the hobby; get out there and recruit new blood!

Stop lamenting what was, and start doing whatever you can to promote the hobby in total, nevermind your own bias. I happen to be an historical gamer who has a science fiction streak a yard wide and a lightyear long. And I'm no slouch with fantasy miniatures games either, having cut my teeth on D&D, AD&D, and 1st edition Runequest.

I love to build models and paint figures, having done the former since about age 8, and the later for over 31 years now. I have just opened negotiations with Hobby Lobby to start teaching a class aimed at drawing people into the hobby, in addition to teaching them how to paint models and figures wit acrylics. One ust think out of the damed box, people!

I will be at Skirmish again this year, as a player. But I will also see if the Skirmish gang is game to have me run a drop-in "clinic" where I share all of my 31 years of model building and figure painting experience for *free,* something I have done at Bay Area conventions for years prior to moving to the Lone Star State. New blood is where we find it, and find it we must IMHO, lest our hobby continue to contract needlessly into a smaller and smaller niche.

So consider my gauntlet thrown down to you veteran gamers once again. Get out there and recruit new blood, and kindly cease splitting hairs over the judgement calls no matter how personally frustrating – of the organizers of a private one day convention.

Personally, I am very disappointed with this decision. But Skirmish has sought to be primarily an historical event, with a few sci-fi/pulp add-ons apparently for yuks. That they chose to limit the number of such events is IMHO more than a little predictable. Unfortunate, and IMHO a tad short-sighted, but predictable give the focus of Skirmish from the get-go.

Phooey. I would have loved to play in such a game, especially having seen The Hills Have Eyes remake recently (EEEYUK!!!). Gives a whole new meaning to "family values" those locals… Bleaaah!

Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net

Leland,

I think you misunderstood my point in my post. I wasn't "lamenting what was", I was lamenting the fact that, IMHO, Greg has taken what should be somewhat of an "in house" issue and now broadcast it in a very unflattering manner to the World via this Forum and all the cross-posting. If you've never gamed in this area and your only opinion of Texas' Gaming is based on Greg's post, we don't come off very well. I fully support both non-historical gamers and board gamers and always have, I just don't choose to participate myself.

My personal leaning has always been to historical miniatures, both as a collector and a gamer. Counting my early collection of W. Britain's 54's and my early gaming experiments with Airfix plastic HO, I too have been involved with the hobby for awhile, about 44 years. I also enjoy modeling terrain, buildings, battlefield accessories, and painting of all types in multiple scales. I have painted everything from 6mm to 1/12th scale figures and done a bit of sculpting and converting. As some others can confirm, I "carried the standard" for many years in this area until I semi-retired in 1992. My current family and business interests don't permit me to devote the time to it that I once did, and I applaud those who have picked up the standard, in whatever form.

My primary point in joining this discussion is that, again IMHO, this should have been a face-to-face discussion with the folks running Skirmish '08, or at most discussed on the LSHM-DFW Yahoo Group, not on an International forum and not broadcast to reader's on almost every Board on this site.

Bill McHenry

Reading between the lines, they think it's silly.

As one of the organizers, Symbiotic Relationship put it succinctly.

We do this for fun and to meet new people. We have always done Skirmish ourselves for our own entertainment. We leave the gamer's politics in the virtual garbage bin.

Greg has the same choice as everyone. He is welcome to participate or not by his own volition.

Skirmish will be held on July 12. It will be a good day as usual. The sun will rise in the east and set in the west.

All DFW area gamers are invited and welcomed to be a part of the games day.

dfwirregulars.com

If silly was the crime I'd have been tarred, feathered, and not allowed to touch another toy soldier within the metroplex.

I think it's really just a case of Skirmish getting top heavy with sci-fi/fantasy games, not that I'm complaining as the closest I get to Napoleonics is a wild game of Flintloque, and number of attendees for the games. I'll be honest, I bring about four people with me and twist their arms to make them play my game so I know I'll have enough 'in house' players that I can run the game regardless of whether or not anyone signs up. I've been blessed during Skirmish '06 and '07 to have mostly a full boat for the games. I could still see Skirmish come into a more games than players situation because even in its third year Skirmish is still growing and finding its feet with the ever fickle D/FW wargaming populace.

I also place a curse upon Leland Erickson for not running Starguard this year. That was my next wargaming investment until the economy took its meaty thumb and placed it firmly into my eye and neutered my hobby dollars for 2008 down to zero.

" If you've never gamed in this area and your only opinion of Texas' Gaming is based on Greg's post, we don't come off very well. I fully support both non-historical gamers and board gamers and always have, I just don't choose to participate myself."

"Anyone who judges by the group is a pea wit!"

A bit of wisdom from a character in the movie GETTYSBURG…

"My personal leaning has always been to historical miniatures, both as a collector and a gamer. Counting my early collection of W. Britain's 54's and my early gaming experiments with Airfix plastic HO, I too have been involved with the hobby for awhile, about 44 years. I also enjoy modeling terrain, buildings, battlefield accessories, and painting of all types in multiple scales. I have painted everything from 6mm to 1/12th scale figures and done a bit of sculpting and converting. As some others can confirm, I "carried the standard" for many years in this area until I semi-retired in 1992. My current family and business interests don't permit me to devote the time to it that I once did, and I applaud those who have picked up the standard, in whatever form."

All good stuff indeed.

"My primary point in joining this discussion is that, again IMHO, this should have been a face-to-face discussion with the folks running Skirmish '08, or at most discussed on the LSHM-DFW Yahoo Group, not on an International forum and not broadcast to reader's on almost every Board on this site."

Well, one could argue that this is as legitimate a way of reaching gamers in the DFW metroplex as any other means, and perhaps arguably reach an even broader audience. While "airing one's dirty laundry in public" is often bad form, sometimes it's not all that "dirty" to begin with.

Personally, I would not have learned of this situation had I not seen it on TMP. It does interest me on principle alone, which I've outlined above.

Personally, I'll be there looking to have fun and cause no end of trouble for everyone else.

Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net

link

After re-reading these post, Senor Pitts is a classic case of cranial-rectal inversion and what is killing our hobby in Dallas-Fort Worth. He's quite the divisive personality apparently from these posts.

Thanks for clearing the air Clay.

Dearest Clay Smith & Steve Miller(pilum40),

There is no sense in the two of you trying to get on my good side by continuing your string of old folk stories that go back some 30 years. While I know you are well intended, some people might get the wrong idea (if you know what I mean).

Many people know how close the two of you are, and how much time the two of you have spent together in sacrifice of friend and family. Some might even use the word that the two of you are "tight".

But no matter; even though you continue to come forth and throw palm leaves, I have no intention of joining you for a menage a trois.

Sorry guys, I'm just not interested.

Have a nice life!

- Greg

GR Pitts –

As I read your post, I found myself wondering, what is your interest in all this, and what are you trying to achieve?

Then I noticed that you had cross-posted your rant to many boards, which makes it clear your only motivation is some kind of personal pettiness.

You are not running any events at the convention, and you say you are not attending. Your friend, whose own response when his game was turned down for Skirmish was intelligent, polite and gracious, seems to have no major beef with the issue. So why are you stirring up trouble and controversy where there is none?

In reading your post, your pettiness, arrogance, and petulance astounded me… until I heard from many people in the hobby and in the industry that these are the primary attributes for which you are known. Now it begins to make a little bit more sense.

When you go out of your way to make trouble in an area which is none of your affair and in which you have no personal stake, when you attack organizers of a convention who have to make all the hard decisions about what and what not to do in the convention, when you paint a false and unflattering picture of people and events and air it in a broad medium such that your silly notions are seen by a vast audience who have no personal knowledge of Skirmish nor of the people involved, YOU are the type of person who is a millstone around the neck of the hobby, YOU are the type of person who damages the hobby and the people involved, YOU are the reason more new, intelligent people are not recruited into the hobby. Shame on you.

I will say it again. Shame on you.

That being said, there was one bright spot in your post, which no doubt makes many people very happy, as it should; when you said, "I for one will not be attending
Skirmish '08." For that, I truly thank you.

Cameron

:) Well posted!

Since this is my first time to GM there should I expect some brawling? Last fight I was in was vs the Bandidos biker gang and since I survived that I think I can handle the historical vs the non-historical conflict that could arise. Sounds like a good game concept, "Killer Con" the fight between the gaming geeks. Ed you got your next best seller;)

Sounds like a fun show,
Brian

The simple fact is, Mr. Cameron (whatever your real name is and your location might be), is that I am not the issue here; the Skirmish '08 orgainizers are.

The only reason I got involved was because a friend of mine told me how he was mistreated by these individuals. Now, you and the other few supporting individuals of the "Thursday Night Irregulars" have taken it upon yourself to take the opportunity to bash me instead of addressing the issue.

I think you would all do well to speak with Mr. Mahan about his issues, and ask him his opinion rather than continue with a 30 year old vendetta against me.

Regards,

Greg

Actually, GRPitts, my name is… Cameron. But your (again) petty attempt to create an issue where there isn't one – in this case what my name might or might not be – reinforces my point, and shows that you are a one-note little complainer.

I for one would love to hear from your friend, on this board or otherwise. He is conspicuous by his absence in a forum in which you have appointed yourself his spokesman.

If he has a complaint, he may very well be right; I would like to hear and judge for myself. From HIM.

As for what the real issue is, YOU made yourself the issue by your insults and attacks in your very first post, before anyone else had said anything. YOU did that; nobody else. A previous poster gave the specific examples of your insults and attacks, so me repeating the process here is unnecessary.

And as for this "30 year old vendetta" against you, whether real or imagined, you can hardly lump me in with your wacky conspiracy theory. Until I read your post, I had never heard of you nor known of your existence (and a happier state that was, too).

Stop holding your friend up like you are using his body as a shield. If you have something to say, be a man, and speak for yourself, and ONLY for yourself; stop creating fake issues and false conspiracies to complain about. I am sure your friend can speak for himself as well if he was anything to say. I hardly think he needs you as an advocate, because you are really bad at it.

And those are the facts, Mr. Pitts. If that is your real name. And I am sure it is.

It suits you perfectly.

"Cameron",

You show by your unwillingness to identify yourself that your opinion is not worthy of comment.

- Greg

Cameron Bruce Fairchild
Dallas, Texas
cfairchild@fairchildtraining.com
469.585.2883

Are you happy now? Feel free to use my phone or e-mail to contact me directly.

Now what petty false issue are you going to try and create, or what excuse are you going to try and hide behind?

You would be utterly hilarious, if you weren't so sad.

My friends and fellow gamers,

I have done quite a bit of thinking the past few days on the numerous posts and emails that I have seen regarding my comments pertaining to certain individuals on the staff of Skirmish ‘08.

While I stand by my points in this manner, I must now freely admit that my initial methodology that I used to address this issue was plainly wrong. I did not directly address the convention organizers privately with the issues I had on their decision regarding Mark Mahon's proposed scenario. Instead, I let my temper get the best of me and engaged a number of outlets that I should not have done.

For this, I give my sincerest apologies to Allen Eldridge, Clay Smith, Steve Miller, and the rest of the Skirmish '08 staff. It is obvious to me that indeed, I do seem to hold some deep seated resentment and/or animosity towards these individuals. It also becomes obvious to me that some of those directly involved in this matter have the same issues with me.

I also give my apologies to all the members on the TMP message boards, the members of the AE2 website, and to those directly or indirectly contacted by email regarding this matter.

While I wish the organizers would reconsider their decision and allow Mr. Mahon to hold his event, the final decision rests with them as it is their event.

I have now said all I have to say regarding this matter.

Sincerely,

- Greg Pitts