"Seleucids and Ptolemies" Topic

Hi chaps, I was just wondering if anybody out there could recommend any books on the above-mentioned successor states? All the books I have are of the 'Greece and Rome at War' type, and deal with the successors merely as an interlude between Alexander and the rise of Rome. I have no books that deal with any successor states except with regard to their defeat by the Romans.

I am specifically interested in the Seleucids and the Ptolemaic kingdom, but not completely to the exclusion of the others. In particular I'd like to know what Ptolemaic armies looked like. Did they have a particularly 'Egyptian' character, or were they like all the other (sub)Macedonian armies?

The WAB supplement about Alexander was originally supposed to cover the Successors, but I hear that that part was ditched before publication. Can anyone recomend any books on this topic, especially ones with nice colour plates?

Check out referencs on the Maccabaes too. They were Judean rebels who fought both Ptolemies and Seleucids, so anything on them will probably cover both of these successor states as well.

Montvert Press did a good book on the Selucids. Early 1970s scupltors gave Ptolemic castings an Egyptian look with wrap around kilts but most of the more recent research shows a more Greek/Macedonian style. Native Egyptian levies may have been more Persian in character.
The Gaul/Galatian mercenaries in Ptolemeic serive are reported as having been give similar blue cloark and (I think) white shields.

There is some good data in the WRG series of black/white illustrations in the Armies of the macedonian and Runic Wars. A real must for classical gamers.

Ares publishing released several good books on the Macedonian Successor states.

Armies of the Macedonian and Punic Wars by WRG. Has a section on the Maccabaens too.

Is the WRG book part of a rules set, or is it a stand-alone thing that is worth getting for someone who doesn't care for their rules?

The WRG book doesn't have rules in them. It is just a really good sourcebook.

The WRG book is part of an Armies and Enemies series from the 1970s. A British publication that is very had to get and expensive. I have them all with one being a hardback edition (minor gloat). The work is bolack and white but the illustrations are numerous and is a primary painting guide source.

Wargames sells WRG book. Montvert had Selucids and Ptolemaic books. WRG book is the best in my opinion and cost about $35. Check manufacturers directory for Wargames.

Just a note about the "Armies of the Macedonian and Punic Wars" WRG book. It is not from the 70s. It was revised (completely re-written) in 1982 by Duncan Head. I would regard it as a must-buy for anyone interested in the period.
However the original query requsted colour plates. For this I'd say that the Montvert books (like Ospreys on steroids)on the Seleucid and Ptolemaic armies are better. Note however that the Montvert author presents a non-standard theory of how these armies worked ie they don't necessarilly represent the generally held academic view. This doesn't mean they are incorrect, they just have a different slant based on the author's own research.

rgds
rob

Rob you are correct, the MAC has a 1982 copyright, the Roman 1981, the Greek (1975), Chinese (1976) and the Crusades (1978). Feudal Europe even has an 1989 date. So most seem to be 1980s publications.

Rob you are correct, the MAC has a 1982 copyright, the Roman 1981, the Greek (1975), Chinese (1976) and the Crusades (1978). Feudal Europe even has an 1989 date. And the Middle Ages series and Ancient Middle East are 1980s So most seem to be 1980s publications.

For uniform / dress books, WRG Armies of the Macedonian and Punic wars is the best available source (for sale from Keep Wargaming, the publishers). You also had the Montvert books, now out of print and very expensive, but they only cover the end of these empires, from 168 BC - 145BC. For military history and campaign information, search for "The seleucid army" written by Bar-Kochva. It is a great source for anything you want to know about the Seleucids, but also expensive. Caliver Books still has it. I don't know of other books for the Ptolemaic.

I hope this helps you out.

Wim VdB

"Note however that the Montvert author presents a non-standard theory of how these armies worked..."

Interesting point,and one I've never heard before WRT the Montvert books. Does the author lay these out as facts or interpretations? I always appreciate it when an author is honest about the (frequent) limits of ancient sources and how much extrapolation can be involved in providing wargamers with troop types and army lists. Duncan Head and Nigel Tallis are very good about this,IMHO.

Montvert seems to be very scholarly in their facts with much data found in any of their books, Much of the material would not be not useable by wargamers.

I think the Society of Ancients had an article discussing the Montvert book, not sure if it was on their site www.soa.org.uk or in "Slingshot" the journal.

Terrible sentance. Lets try it again.

Montvert seems to be very scholarly in their facts. Any of their books contain valuable data, but Much of the material would not be not useable by wargamers

In particular I'd like to know what Ptolemaic armies looked like. Did they have a particularly 'Egyptian' character, or were they like all the other (sub)Macedonian armies?

--- Ptolemaic armies did not have many "distinctive Egyptian" soldiers in the army until the Raphia campaign of 217 BC. Before then the Ptolemaic army specifically kept native Egyptians out of the army to keep the populace unamred, after Raphia the kingdom was rocked by revolts leadign to fragmentation and even a revival Egyptian Theban dynasty (short lived). The Ptolemies were Macedonians and so most of their line troops would have appeared Hellenistic- and the Egyptian levy may well have been armed with typical gear. Egyptian soldiers seem to wear the Sidon or ascalon style helmet in reliefs... this is shown in Sekunda's Montvert publications on the Seleucids and Ptolemies. Sekunda's work is controversial because he describes a faster evolution to imitation legionaires than many others, basiclally theorizing that the phalanx all but disappeared after Pydna in these armies, other disagree.

The WAB supplement about Alexander was originally supposed to cover the Successors, but I hear that that part was ditched before publication. Can anyone recomend any books on this topic, especially ones with nice colour plates?

--- The WAB supplement for the Successors is being edited and reformtted to match Alexander the Great and should be finished sometime next year.
JeffJ

"--- The WAB supplement for the Successors is being edited and reformtted to match Alexander the Great and should be finished sometime next year. JeffJ "

YAY! I was wondering what happened to the Successors.

A couple of things. First off, 1st Corps makes fantastic 28mm Native Egyptian phalangites.

Second, as the Ptolemies adopted a lot of Egyptian customs, I would not think it out of hand that soldiers, though Greek and Macedonian, might have been partially 'Egyptianized.' Look at the Seleucid Phalangites, and I would expect Egyptian culture to have more influence than Syrian.

For my Ptolemaic army I had the bulk of the phalangits as classic Macedonians. The Native phalangites i used 1st corps as discussed. I threw in a couple of Seleucid trousered phalangites for men from the Ptolemaic Palestine provinces and the Guards were pure plumed helmets, Macedonian types with greeves. However, I did give them New Kingdom standards.

Thanks, fellas.

RudyNelson - thanks for the tip on Ares Publishing. I had never heard of this outfit. I've requested a catalog from them and look forward to seeing it. How's the quality of their books? Since the Montvert books I want are all so darned expensive, Ares may make a good alternative source to feed my Ancients book addiction.

Doug