"WOR - How Many 28mm figures will I need?" Topic

Hi Generals,

Sorry to sound so "Clueless"…….

I have no rules / army lists as yet for the Wars of the Roses but have bought a few Front Rank WOR figures in 28 mm to have a closer look at and very nice they are too.

Some popular rule sets seem to be Warhammer, Bloody Barons, Pole Axed 2 to name a few judging by reading a few threads here.

My question is about how many figures am I going to need to represent an average WOR Army / battle in 28 mm?

Is there an upper and lower figure, different rule sets must use different troop scales?

Also I know little of the WOR army composition.

The main troop types were Archers and Billmen at a 2:1 ratio is that correct?

What ratio were Men at Arms to other troop classes.

Will I need many mounted or did they always fight on foot.

Hand gunners, Canon and Crossbow, Spear/Pike Men are these rare exotic troop classes worth bothering about?

So what's an authentic mix of troop types in ratio's which look historic.

How do you intergrate the figures to simulate the warfare by fighting in 3 battles on the tabletop?

Is there any sort of army lists reference online?

I know if I bought a rule set this would answer all questions, but you guys have the hard facts.

Any help is most appreciated and the Info might help other Newbies like me just getting into the period.

Many Thanks in Advance

Cheers

C

If I may, I'd suggest Medieval Warfare by Terry Gore. There is a scenario book for all of the major Wars of the Roses Battles by him Read more about it here:

theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=133728

how many miniatures will you need? this question depends on the rules you play and the size of battles you want to play. but in all practicality more is better.

war of the roses armies had very little mounted troops on the battlefield. the ratio of menatarms to billmen to archers was different than in the 100 years war english armies. total non archer troops were closer to 50/50 with archers. menatarms might be as many as a third of the whole army but usually ten percent or less.

the armies were often a lot larger too than any that english kings took to france. being larger musters the level of quality was lower both in training morale and armor compared to the selected armies of the 100 years war. handgunners were rare. pikemen were nonexistent for all intents and purposes. peasant levies without longbows used every implement of death, boar spears, old battlefield booty weapons, and of course the bill.

Hi Dowd Elwood P

What rules do you use and how many figures would you need with those rules for say the Yorkist's at the Battle of Tewkesbury that was quite small. 5000 – 10000 men.

That would give me an idea of the army size I would need. 100, 200, 300 figures?

Rule wise – I suppose I am looking for examples how many figures would I need to get to use say Warhammer as opposed to Piquet or Poleaxed etc.

Is it how longs a piece of string?

Thanks for the advice on the ratios so far.

C

I would guess about 120 – 250 troops for one side, depending upon the rules selected, for one side. Double that, if you need to field both sides of a battle.

I think that is a fairly good number, from my recollection for Poleaxed.

Of course, you could use fewer troops as well.

For WAB a standard 2000 point army it would be around 150 figures. These rules can also be fudged and modified to fit the three battle army deployment.

I don't know much about the other rule systems. All my figures are individualy mounted for skirmish gaming so WAB is my only choice of the above listed rules.

What you need is the War of The Roses Sourcebooks from Freezywater – tinyurl.com/5zfuby – check out the free samples and see if it helps.

"My question is about how many figures am I going to need to represent an average WOR Army / battle in 28 mm?"

Depends on the rules, the figure representation scale and whether you want to fight complete battles or just skirmishes.

"Is there an upper and lower figure, different rule sets must use different troop scales?"

If you are talking about complete battles then:
1st St Albans: ~3,000 Yorkists ~2,000 Lancastrians
Towton: According to the chroniclers, both sides were about 30,000 (total of 60,000 engaged) but this is TWICE the size of any other WOTR battle and IMHO is wildly exaggerated. I would put them at about half that. Still the largest battle ever to have been fougt on English soil.

"Also I know little of the WOR army composition."

Neither do we, if the truth be told. All the chroniclers tell us the numbers of troops involved (but see above). There is little if any indication as to the mix of troop types.

"The main troop types were Archers and Billmen at a 2:1 ratio is that correct?"

No. As others have said this is more likely to have been nearer 1:1 based on the information we have from commissions of array and letters of indenture.

"What ratio were Men at Arms to other troop classes."

Lower than most people think, assuming you mean men in full harness.

"Will I need many mounted or did they always fight on foot."

Mounted combat was unusual in WOTR. There are a few examples, e.g. the "200 spears" at Tewkesbury and some of the Lancastrians at 2nd St Albans.

"Hand gunners, Canon and Crossbow, Spear/Pike Men are these rare exotic troop classes worth bothering about?"

Canon? No, the clergy kept well out of it … oh, sorry you mean artillery. Handguns and artillery were the new fangled weapons of the period, unreliable and often supplied by foreign mercenaries. The effectiveness of a fortified artillery encampment had been proved at Castillon in 1453 and in at least two WOTR battles (Northampton and 2nd St Albans) it seems that the same tactic was attempted. Handguns made their first documented appearance on an English battlefield at 2nd St Albans, although they were a miserable failure.

There is little evidence for the presence of crossbows, spears or pikes. Crossbows are not common in England, the warbow being much preferred.

"So what's an authentic mix of troop types in ratios which look historic"

You guess is probably as good as mine, but see other comments above.

"How do you integrate the figures to simulate the warfare by fighting in 3 battles on the tabletop?"

I am writing a set of rules that hopefully will achieve this. IMHO the rules currently available do not really do so (but then I admit I'm biased).

"Is there any sort of army lists reference online?"

I'm not aware of anything.

"I know if I bought a rule set this would answer all questions"

Not necessarily!

"but you guys have the hard facts."

Er … no. There is very little "hard fact" about the WOTR at all. Most of what we know is educated guesswork based on interpretation of the scant primary sources.

Thanks Mike a good overview of the problems a wargamer faces without detailed historical facts.

Yes canon LOL.

Cheers so far everyone.

The Battles books for the Wars of the Roses by Freezywater are highly recommended, since they provide a lot of great detail in condensed form, e.g. unit sizes and compositions, as well as the names of many of the participants, for various battles.

I don't think you can go wrong with them.

They are meant to be paired with Poleaxed and Poleaxed 2, which I have, but haven't used, so can't comment honestly on them.

Maximilian is another set of rules you might consider. Rather DBA'ish in overall concept, but more clearly written, and with army lists for the 1300's – 1500's, if I recall correctly. You need about 120 – 180 troops or so to do battle with them.

Bloody Barons has also received good reviews.

Thanks TG,

How many figs for Bloody Barons anyone?

I hear this is a fun set by Peter Pig?

Cheers

Ratio is a personal like thing. You should assess how many figures you will want to finish, and tailor your games from that standpoint. For instance, you can play Tewkesbury with hundreds of figures to a side, or less than a hundred to a side. If you had a unit of 10 billmen it could be anywhere from 10 men (skirmish scale) to 1,000 men (100 men per based figure). If ultimately you have trouble finding an already published set of rules to suit the number of miniatures you plan to paint, you might try cobbling up your own for a single battle and go from there.

"If you had a unit of 10 billmen it could be anywhere from 10 men (skirmish scale) to 1,000 men (100 men per based figure)."

In my rules (mentioned above), 12 figures represent 2000 men!

Here's the essential thing about figure to men ratios: when you play a historical battle where (say) 5,000 men on a side are known, and you have 60 figures to represent that side in the refight, there's your figure to men ratio automatically. The game itself may have a figure to men ratio built into it, but realistically the number of figures you have to play out the battle establishes the ratio for that battle.

I have played out Hattin, for instance, probably four times and each time the number of figures on the table varied. The last time I played it was really close to the game (rules) scale representing historical numbers: all previous times the number of men to figures was much larger, because we had fewer figures to fight the battle with. It wasn't a problem, because the terrain wasn't exactly to scale and the movement rates and missile fire tables were our commonly established distances.

I have played a few enormous historical battles with only a few figures to each side, where I took the ground scale and halved it to slow the game down and shorten the missile ranges and "increase" the size of the table (Chalons was one such occasion): no sense in seeing half a dozen figures in a single line, wheeling about like a squad! The slowed down movement affected maneuvering too, which turned that small unit of half a dozen into a slowly moving, ponderous thing: representative of the several thousand men in phalanx it was supposed to be.

My WotR army, made for WRG 7th edition, contains 96 regular longbowmen which is the maximum allowed by the list, and slightly more other troops. Including some options and artillery -- which can't all be used at the same time -- it's about 240 figures.

You don't need a lot of cavalry since men-at-arms usually fought dismounted, and only small numbers of hobilars (a sort of medium cavalry) were used.

When I convert the army for FoG rules I will rebase the archers from 4 to an element to 3; this will extend the size of the army for the same number of figures.

Similar factors come into play for other rules.

Overall you probably need about 200 figures for a typical set of rules like WRG, Warrior, FoG, DBM/M, though, as previous posts have said, the figure ratio can vary widely and you can make changes youself to suit your available figures.