"A Northern Arthur?" Topic

Having gotten into Arthurian gaming in a big way, I'm trying to broaden my knowledge of the period but one of the theories I'm particuarly interested in is the theory that Arthur was based in Cumbria and Northumberland around Hadrian's wall (being a native Cumbrian myself).

I realise that the commonly held view has arthur operating further south but does anyone know of any books which deal with the possibility of a northern Arthur?

"In Search of the Dark Ages" by Michael Wood sums up the raesoning quite well, for a more Cumbriancentric view "A People called Cumbri" by Frank Carruthers is worth a look.

Of course the Northern Britons had (sorry- have) their own heroes who's fame probably explains why Arthur is assumed to be from the South, Urien and Owain ap Rheged, Owain Caesarius, Dunmail and Rhydderch Hael amongst others.

Graham

Try Alistair Moffat's "Arthur and the Lost Kingdoms":

link

His model is a bit north of you, based around Trimontium in the Borders.

Norma Lorre Goodrich places him at Carlisle:

link

…following much the same path as did the Victorian antiquary William Forbes Skene:

link

Allen

The old classic by Rosemary Sutcliffe, "Sword at Sunset" is based on well-researched "Arthur" factoids. She puts "Artos the Bear" in the north too. I think that works.

"Sword at Sunset" has Arthur spending some time in the north, but he's very much a southern Briton. Now, Sutcliff's "The Shining Company" is a retelling of the Gododdin, so it's northern.

Allen

Now, Sutcliff's "The Shining Company" is a retelling of the Gododdin, so it's northern.

Speaking of Gododdin, there is an Arthur Mac Aeden of Gododdin in the latter part of the 6th century or perhaps early 7th. Again, a bit north of where you are thinking and probably after the time period. Some historians swear this is the real Arthur because he bears the name.

The Shining company sounds interesting. I really enjoyed the story in the poem. Might have to order that.

John

If we get onto novels there is "King Arthur and the Riders of Rheged" (I think!) by Tom Clare, ex-Cumbria county archeologist. As a novelist he makes a good archeologist….but he makes a good argument for his hypothosis that I heard him deliver in several lectures. He argues that the "Empire of Arthur" postulated by Leslie Allcock in "Arthurs Britain" (Which was the first modern historian to consider Arthur and the Post Roman British as serious historical characters)was in fact the large 2Empire" of Urien ap Rheged and he argued that the lands held by Urien or trubutary kingdoms streched from Edinburgh, accross to Catterick and South to Whitchurch in Shropshire. This, if you can accept as true is, in 6th century eyes a large "empire" indeed. Of course it all depends on squniting as to the dates…as urien is significantly of later date than the usually accepted dtes for an Arthur.

Graham

Where you based rivers?

Was'nt he 'linked' with Cadbury Castle, which is in Wessex if I recall correctly? Or was that just one of the battles?
I dunno, memory is a strange thing.

Where you based rivers?

Currently I'm at uni in Glasgow but originally from Carlisle.

To be honest, before I really got into this period I was completely unaware that there were theories of Arthur being so local.

Then to my surprise I found out that 5 minutes away near Longtown was the site of the battle of Arfderydd in 573, which the supposed inspiration for Merlin attended and after which he went mad.

""Sword at Sunset" has Arthur spending some time in the north, but he's very much a southern Briton. Now, Sutcliff's "The Shining Company" is a retelling of the Gododdin, so it's northern.

Allen"

Oh, yeah. Hazy memory on some of the details. I guess I remember his northern campaigns in the story the best.

Na – Arthur lived just outside Stroud in Gloucestershire

See link

Ron Fletcher is an amazing bloke – well into his 80s – I used to see him quite often down the pub where he would go on for hours about the Arthur legend

Norma Lorre Goodrich, Alistair Moffat, and William Skene are good ones to look at first (as aecurtis says). Also look for John Glennie's 'Arthurian Localities' (reprinted by Llanerch). My personal favourite is Archie McKerracher's theory, who claims that Arthur lived at 40 Adam Crescent, Stenhousemuir, but I wouldn't put much faith in the history of that one :-)

One of my own books deals with Arthur in history & literature, drop me a line off site if you want more info or look it up on Amazon (Arthur: King of the Britons/D Mersey). Hope the mini plug is OK? danielmersey AT yahoo dot com

Danmer, I have your book and I must say I quoted some of the things you mention in it in my own PhD thesis.

Very interesting book, well done!

Thanks Quebecnordiques! Glad you enjoyed it.

One other text worth reading for period flavour (it's not directly connected to Arthur, although he gets a mention in passing) is Aneirin's Y Gododdin. Rosemary Sutcliff's story based on the poem is mentioned above, but getting your hands on a translation of the original is well worth it if you're interested in the northern British kingdoms in this time period.

Arthur can be anywhere … please read up-to-date archaelogical views on the "invasion"

Arthur can be anywhere … please read up-to-date archaelogical views on the "invasion"

Arthur is EVERYWHERE! :)

One other text worth reading for period flavour (it's not directly connected to Arthur, although he gets a mention in passing)is Aneirin's Y Gododdin.

Its only a mention but isnt it the First mention of Arthur?
irrespective of Arthur the 97 Eulogies are superb

Arthur is from Hartlepool. A local historian says so. Calling a petty Kingdom in Cumbria is stretching things indeed. Leslie Alcock has stated subsequently that he accepts there is no evidence for Arthur. If you read Skene then you might as well read Gibbons for your Roman history. To follow Bruntonboys mode of reference, as history Arthur makes a good science fiction hero. When will someone make armies based upon, Urien Rheged, Cunmail, Dunmail etc instead of this phantasm ? Rivers.. why don't you research the real figures from your locality – a much more tangible project ? Start with Y Gododdin as Perkunos so rightly recommends, it is inspiring – full of images that could make vignettes for the wargames table. Rantette est fini.

I was thinking of a Gododdin inspired army using the West Wind 'Arthurian' cavalry bodies, with their un-helmeted heads from the same company's Pictish or 'Arthurian' ranges. My reason? The Goddodin makes no mention of helmets, while there are many references to swords, spears, armour, shields and horses. This isn't too surprising as their northern neighbours, the Picts, are shown as helmetless in their decorative art. The Gododdin also mentions the use of gold torques – not sure how I'd make these!I think a helmet – less army of this period might have some of the individuality that plastickviking2 is craving.

helmets are shown on 8 century Aberlemno stone, resembling the Coppergate helmet and fragments , possibly of a late-roman style spangenhelm were found in Dumfriesshire. However, the upland zone British were never Romanised to the degree of those in the south, there are not the number of villa farms or towns that there are down inthe 'breadbasket' provinces. There are several references in early British poetry to heroes 'setting their swords in the hair' of their enemies – again arguing against helmets. Gold torques, white shields, steely armour and the red and blue dyes britain was famous for- could be very picturesque.

Any thoughts about the Gododdin cavalry? The poem often seems to suggest javelin armed skirmishers, and some rule sets (Glutter of Ravens, for example)classify as such, but as far as I remember there is at least one mention of a horse's front stained with blood, suggesting close up cavalry fighting. Perhaps they did both

References in the poem to what sound like shield wall tactics indicate that some of the warriors were either deployed as infantry, or dismounted after their initial skirmishing charges…

The Gododdin 'army' seems , from the poem and the limited archaeology from the era, to be the same as all the other 'barbarian' people of the time. A small elite, some armoured, on horseback and a larger number of warriors on foot who fight in a shieldwall/phalanx – described as 'square' and 'well ordered'. They probably were not charging headlong into the enemy but throwing spears and waiting for the moment when they could ride down scattered or isolated enemy but they could do more than 'skirmish'. The poems make it plain the horseriders were killing and being killed at close quarters AND showering the enemy with spears.

As plasticviking2 suggests, I'd agree that British cavalry at this time approached the enemy, hurled their javelins, and looked for weak points to exploit, closing in with swords; that's how I interpret Y Gododdin anyway. The poem suggests well armed and armoured riders, so it would make sense for them to close into melee rather than holding of in a purely skirmish role.

Glutter of Ravens classifies them as light cavalry, but I'd still envisage the cavalry closing into melee at some point . . . but perhaps that's why I lose most games I play :-)

In KING ARTHUR: THE TRUE STORY it is argued that Arthur was a Votadini. The tribe were argued to have relocated from north of the wall.

The Votadini migration idea was shown (in the early 1960's ) to be an origin myth (a myth has NO historical basis) devised by north welsh medieval kings to give themselves more credible ancestry. The only connection between 'Arthur'and the Votadini is the name mentioned in the Gododdin poem, which itself is probably inserted later. It is interesting to note that the same kings did not attempt to devise some connection with an Arthur figure at the same time. Either that was not useful – odd if he was so important a figure or, more likely, because such a connection did not exist even in 'tradition' or popular legend at the time.
It takes a long time for 'popular' writers to catch up on academic research – in many cases history is much drier and less spectacular than archaeology – in this case unsuccessfully after 50 years… but in many cases such as John Matthews et al and the denizens of Glastonbury, they repeat vague 'traditions' and quote from old books as if this makes them true. Arthur was firmly connected with Cadbury hillfort at the opposite end of the country in the 1970's, but is no longer. There are better historical characters to model armies around such as Gildas' tyrants, the Cumbrian British or the Gododdin heroes.