FABET01 | 18 May 2008 1:34 p.m. PST |
I'm trying to find any info about the British Army of WWII deployment of and integration of Black soldiers into units. Search engines haven't bee much help. Any info or suggestions? |
Last Hussar | 18 May 2008 2:22 p.m. PST |
The only mention I have ever seen was a US infomation film for troops being sent here. It showed a black soldier dancing with a white woman, and an warning not to be offened by this, as there were no seg laws. |
Gavin000 | 18 May 2008 2:47 p.m. PST |
Although not exactly what you're looking for, there is an interesting thread about black soldiers serving in the British Army on The Great War Forum link It seems that during WWI at least, there was no attempt to treat black recruits any differently and they served in various regiments. I have a WWI postcard showing a Royal Artillery unit which includes a black soldier. I suspect things were not much different during WWII |
GildasFacit | 18 May 2008 3:44 p.m. PST |
The colour of your skin didn't stop you being called up or get you any special treatment if you were a British national and I'd be surprised if there weren't quite a few non-white conscripts. Having said that though, racial predjudice may well have directed them to less 'glamourous' arms of the service. You should also add to those who were living in Britain many who came over from the West Indies to sign up. I know that many went into specifically West Indian units but I don't think all of them did. |
Phillius | 18 May 2008 5:21 p.m. PST |
The number of West Indians living in the UK rose dramatically after WWII. Prior to that there were only a small number of such immigrants, so their prescence in the armed forces would have been very small. On a similar note, here in NZ, many American troops were stationed in Taranaki before being transferred to the islands. Racial segregation was not practised here on anything above a personal scale at that time, so the coloured GIs mixed with the locals quite freely. There is an interesting anecdote of an early NZ Maoris rugby team including a player who was the offspring of a coloured GI and a NZ European woman! |
FABET01 | 18 May 2008 5:55 p.m. PST |
Thanks gents. You pretty much confirmed what I had I had thought. A great example of how the lack of (photographic) evidence can be very misleading. |
Leadgend | 18 May 2008 7:33 p.m. PST |
Of course the British had quite a lot of Imperial, Colonial and other localised units that were mostly made up of Africans. eg the 11th and 12th African divisions, the Kings African Rifle (KAR) Regiment, the Sudanese Defence Force and Ethiopian "Patriots". |
BlackWidowPilot | 18 May 2008 9:00 p.m. PST |
After reading this thread and the information on the Great War Forum
wow. Now I have some painting notes to add for my WW1 Canadians and Brits
Leland R. Erickson Metal Express metal-express.net P.S. My Dad-in-law was one of the first batch of West Indians who emigrated to England in 1948, recruited to help rebuild the country. He retired after a very successful career as a mason. I chanced to find a photograph of the ship he arrived on – the Empire Windrush- and the former air raid shelter turned temporary hostel where he spent his first nights beneath Clapham Common, London. My family was pretty blown away by my discovery, in a copy of THE FORTIES IN PICTURES found at the local T.J. Maxx store for $5.99 USD no less. Can't keep a bargain-hound Military Historian down.. |
Jakar Nilson | 18 May 2008 9:44 p.m. PST |
I do have to point out that for African-Canadians in WWI, that they were effectively segregated into their own unit. I can't remember what it was, but all the black volunteers for the CEF were rounded up into this non-combat unit. They had to butt heads to get a chance at combat. Not our finest hour. |
BoltAction | 18 May 2008 10:59 p.m. PST |
In Steven Ambrose's book Pegasus Bridge there is a mention of three Black soldiers in the company of the Ox and Bucks that hit the two bridges. Yep if you were living here as a person of black origin you were called up and served in a combat unit. Paul@BAM |
x42brown | 19 May 2008 12:01 a.m. PST |
I personally knew three Blacks who were in the British forces during WWII. Taffy from Tiger Bay, Cardiff, Wales. A tank driver with the Yorkshire Hussars. He and my father "Jock" were close friends as two non-Yorkshire men in that regiment. Lennie from Jamaica. RAF ground crew. David from Nigeria. Senior officer REME. One of the best engineers I worked for. From their tales there was little prejudice within the forces but often problems with outsiders David in particular had to deal with American forces and had some problems there. Taffy had a lot of problems while passing through Cape Town on the way to Palestine. From my own research (into my father's service) Taffy is remarked on as welsh in some documents but nowhere have I seen anything saying Black. Making it hard to find out if there were many blacks in the forces. x42 |
BoltAction | 19 May 2008 4:25 a.m. PST |
I thought Cardiff has the oldest black community in Britain. |
x42brown | 19 May 2008 4:43 a.m. PST |
Boltaction I belive you are correct. Though Bristol and London are in the compitition (some in that community say that it is the one community). x42 |
koyli1968 | 19 May 2008 5:00 a.m. PST |
There were substantial numnbers in the RAF mostly from the west indies. In my dads squadron there were several and they always attended the reunions post war, met a few one was my dads mate and he was my godfather. british based citizens would have joined up normally as I dont think the British army was actually segregated. in the colonies all balck units were formed and soem were excellent – in Brma the west african division seemed to do well. |
archstanton73 | 19 May 2008 8:40 a.m. PST |
Britain has always had a small black population--dating back to Elizabethan times
Estimates vary but a figure of 25,000 people is often quoted for pre-Windrush era
Very interesting was my next door neighbour but one who was married to a black woman, thinking that she was West Indian I found out that her family have always lived in Bristol
But in WW2 3 of her sisters married Black GI's and emigrated to America at the end of WW2..fascinating story
|
Coconuts | 19 May 2008 5:57 p.m. PST |
Does 'small black population' in the post above refer only to people from the West Indies and sub-saharan Africa, or simply to everyone who was neither white nor Chinese/Asian? I am thinking this because 25,000 from sub-saharan Africa/Carribean sounds quite a lot for Elizabethan times. |
BoltAction | 20 May 2008 1:56 a.m. PST |
I know that the term Lascar was used in reference to people of Asian decent in Elizabethan times. |
archstanton73 | 20 May 2008 10:16 a.m. PST |
I think it does actually mean sub-saharan or West Indies, the Chinese or other non-white people(ie Indians, native Americans etc) would have been seen as different.. But considering that Africans were often carted off to the West Indies as slaves and saw a way to freedom and a return home through service in either the Royal Navy or merchant marine the tides of fortune would often end up with them making a life in Britain
I wonder if Holland would have had a high population of Indonesians during the 18th-19 Cent for the same reason
.. |
Coconuts | 20 May 2008 3:18 p.m. PST |
I was just surprised because I didn't know Britain had that much contact with Sub-Saharan Africa and the West Indies in the 16th Century. I could imagine more people coming from North and East Africa during that time, because I had an impression that European countries had more contact with these parts of Africa in that era. |
Cuchulainn | 22 May 2008 5:09 a.m. PST |
An interesting thread
Although not strictly relevant to this topic, it nonetheless might be of interest to post about an incident which happened in Northern Ireland, during WW2. In the town I'm from, quite a large number of American GI's were stationed here, and obviously the local pubs were regularly visited by them. Normally the black and white GI's didn't frequent the same watering holes, until on one occasion a black walked into a "white" pub. He ordered his drink, but as the bar owner was preparing it, one of his white colleagues warned him not to serve the man as he shouldn't be in there. The bar owner informed the white soldier, that in his pub, anybody who wanted a drink could have one, and if others didn't like it, they could **** off! As this would have been the attitude of all the pubs round here, there wasn't much the white guy could do about it, and from then on both colours seemed to use any pub they wanted. |
Last Hussar | 24 May 2008 4:53 p.m. PST |
I imagine if those soldiers were from the South this would have taken quite a shift in their world view! |