"Ammunition Question" Topic

ACW soldiers were provided so many rounds of ammunition to fill their ammo pouches, ammo being paper cartridges. My question is how was the ammunition distributed to the troops? Were the cartridges put together at a factory, packaged and then sent to the front, were they put together closer to the front by supply troops, what?

Thanks,

Each 'pack' of rounds was wrapped at a factory with 10 rounds per and also enough caps. The soldiers were issued four of these because your cartridge box held 40 rounds. You'd unwrap 20 round and keep the other 20 in the comparment below the top tier. Many times you'd be given more which you'd have to stuff in your pockets or knapsack.

that should have read, You'd unwrap 20 rounds, put them in the top of the cartridge box tins and keep the other 20 wrapped in the compartment below the top tier of the tins.

Cartridges were packaged by tens in paper wrapper with 12 percussion caps included. These packages were place in wooden boxes, differing numbers by caliber, and the box marked with caliber, number, and manufactory. Boxes were painted in colors to reflect content but most useable sizes were the same, making external markings all the more important. Boxes were carried by wagon to troop area and distributed, according to circumstances, to the troops. Four packages, 40 rounds, to each, normally. If additional issue were ordered, the packages would be carried on the soldier's person wherever he could.

A tip of the keyboard to Avidgamer for his typing skill.

Typing skill?! What? That usually doesn't fit with my skill set. ;)

Avidgamer at the keyboard:

link

He does darned well, considering.

Allen

Hey… who took that picture of me?! Damn it!

Avidgamer gets all the details about the ammunition right: Made and pre-packaged in factories shipped to the front and distributed, etc. One detail I've never been able to find described was the actual process for distributing the ammo to the troops. Was it done while the troops were in ranks? If so, how and by who? Did they just lug in a couple of crates of ammo to each company and have the sergeants distribute it? Did they keep records of who it was given to? I know there were official forms for tracking this, but the mechanism for using them is obscure. I have also read that in battle one of the file closing sergeants (4th? 5th?) had the job of going to the rear and hauling back more ammo for his company. I've even read about special canvas bags to be used for the task. And yet I've also read many, many accounts of regiments being pulled out of the line due to lack of ammo. Clearly the system (such as it was) could not keep troops in action reliably supplied.

Scott,
I too would like to know more about distribution. I read an article several years ago about Gettysburg where the author stated that there were special two-wheeled carts pulled by mules that ran from the supply wagons to the firing line hauling ammo. This is the only refrence I've read on ammo distribution.

Thanks, I knew I'd get a good answer from TMP. I can see why units ran out of ammo if they were only given 40 rounds and any extra rounds had to be put in their pocket or wherever.

So I'd second the query into how additional ammo was distributed to the line during engagements.

Is it true a typical ACW soldier could fire off three aimed shots in one minute? If so, 40 rounds of ammo would be used up in a 15 minute firefight! Resupply would be crucial!

Hi

I haven't read of any regimentation involved. Lots of ammo was carried in box, and soldiers often decided to carry extra Cartridge boxes. And there are often descriptions of soldiers carrying back up loose powder and shot and caps as well. One of the frustrations for the gamers is the lack of regulations in the field. Americans WASTE ammo, is the more common complaint.

R

The Ordnance Manual provided for no carts other than inside established forts. I have always envisioned something between Isandlwana and the WWII movie techique thanking "Sarge". Definitely ammunition was shared during quiet times.
Seatle: that was not consecutively every minute and it refers more to loading than actual firing. I am flabergasted that reenactors go thru so much powder trying to re-create battles when the original participants lasted on 40 rounds for the whole day.
Scott probably has many stories about reenactor volleys.

I the book Hardtack and Coffee there is a drawing of mules carrying ammo boxes straped to their backs being led to the soldiers.

"and soldiers often decided to carry extra Cartridge boxes."

I have never, ever heard nor read of this. Where did you discover this? Can you give an exact sources?

"And there are often descriptions of soldiers carrying back up loose powder and shot and caps as well."

I have never heard of this during the CW. Where did you hear this? Are you talking about Rev War?

Maybe there was no real universal accepted system in place that was followed every time. Ammo and ration wagons did accompany Brigades on the march did they not? Maybe NCOs and men were simply detailed from regts or companies to do the job, as they were to do scores of other work details. I am just guessing about this for sure, and would defer to anyone with better information!!

Two rounds a minute for the first few minutes seems more reasonable to me. What people don't realize is that black powder and un-jacketed lead bullets leave behind a-lot of residue after being fired, not to mention that the barrel becomes awfully hot. After a few shots, the weapon becomes more difficult to load properly. At this point you have a choice, maintain rate of fire but sacrifice accuracy such as it may be. Or slow down the rate of fire so the weapon can be loaded properly, as best as it can be. Accuracy is still affected though.

From what I remember if they had reserves close by they would pull a unit out of line to go back and resupply. But if not units got hit out of ammo and they didn't always stay, such as the Stonewall Bde at Kernston in '62.

Hi

I read this most recently in two books i was reading last month on US breach loaders, if this isn't a challenge, but actual curiosity, i can supply you with ISBN.

Rocky

I read in Cozzen's Chickamauga book that one Union division CO on a hunch distributed 100 rounds each on the morning of the second day.

An Ohio regiment with Colt repeaters went thorugh more than 100 rounds each that day.

"if this isn't a challenge, but actual curiosity, i can supply you with ISBN."

Yes I'd like to know. I have never heard it before. How is it possible to even carry multiple cartridge boxes?

Rocky,

You wrote, "soldiers often decided to carry extra Cartridge boxes". Did you mean to say extra packs of cartridges as opposed to the cartridges boxes? Where would they get the extra boxes themselves? They'd have to draw an extra allotment and the Government would charge them for it. It sounds odd.

The other thing about loose powder that sounds even stranger. How are the soldiers supposed to measure out the grains of powder? No one had the tool to do that? How would that be dispensed even if they could? How would they store it? Where would a soldier put loose powder? He has no empty paper cartridges.

I am baffled.

While I imagine there was a certain amount of loose pistol grade powder and pistol balls available, this wouldn't do the average infantryman much good though. And the engineer types probably had quantities of loose powder, but without projectiles again it doesn't do the average infantryman any good. Not to mention the engineers would be unlikely to turn the powder over to Joe Infantry.
As mentioned above, ammo came packaged, both infantry ammo and artillery ammo. There was no ready means available to "roll your own" that I am aware of.

As to extra cartridge boxes, I suppose you could take them off the dead and wounded, indeed extra rounds were often acquired from those who no longer needed them. I rather imagine they took the ammo and left the cartridge boxes though as trying to remove cartridge boxes from the dead and wounded would be a inconvenient, as well as somewhat distasteful to the average soldier.

Aside from the awkwardness of trying to wear more than one cartridge box, what would be the use?
Unless your entire regiment has extra cartridge boxes, they are going to run out of ammo before you do. Are you really going to stick around when they all retire due to lack of ammunition?

I'm not saying it never happened, I'm sure just about anything imaginable happened at one point or another, but saying that it happened "often" is a bit much.

Historically there have always been two main discipline problems with soldiers. One is when the authorities issue them with stuff like mess kits or greatcoats they find too heavy to carry, and they "lose" it. The other is when the authorities issue them with too little good stuff, such as ammo, and they "find" more of it than they ought to have.

Hi

Didn't mean to start a firestorm here. Sheesh. Casual conversation seems to get serious with you guys.

Truth in advertising. I am not the sort of gamer who can "knows" the exact time the attack on little round top started. I own and shoot the weapons as a hobby, and only game casually in the ACW.

We have the following weapon types in service:

Muzzleloaders: no problem with loose powder and shot as a backup. Further, in the field, no problem making cartridges by hand with no real tools.

Revolvers and revolving carbines and rifles. Loose powerder and shot is the norm.

Breachloading paper cartidge carbines and rifles. Loose powder and shot? Well, actually some, like the Sharpes can be loaded as muzzloaders with little problem in a pinch.

Breachloading brass cartridge with two sub groups. One is rimfire, second is a cartridge with a separate nipple cap.

This last is the only one that causes problems. Rimfires are fixed ammo and loose powder isn't an issue. But the cartridge weapons (cloth or brass) can be reloaded by hand. An the usual procedure is to just keep the empty bras cartidges.

A little later with centerfire, I usually have the field reloading tools With me. They aren't very heavy. And with paper cartridge, make most rounds in the field!

Anyway, if you are interested on more about shooting check out "Civil War Carbines" by Peter Schiffers ISBN 1931464-33-2. This guy has a better collection of originals than I do and …well you gotta read it if this is interesting.

The other book I have at hand that mentions this "extras" stuff is Civil War Breech Loading Rifles by John D. McAulay 0-917218-29-9.

I understand that wargamers often fall into two groups, one is the "Big Army" with the general as god, and the skirmish types, where every man is king. And most of the rhetorical questions above fall on one side or another.

In the case of the US, carrying extra is a common idea for americans. My grandfather was in the cavalry at the end of the 19th and the beginning of the 20th and regularly said "you can never carry too much ammo or water". My dad was an ops guy in WW2 and made the same observation. I have photos of both looking like pack mules in this respect.

My late buddy "The Crazy Ranger" was called "water wagon" in nam because of the extra water he always had, but everyone carried all the ammo they could.

Rocky

Rocky,

Okay this is all well and good but I still don't get the, "Muzzleloaders: no problem with loose powder and shot as a backup. Further, in the field, no problem making cartridges by hand with no real tools." It is easy to do it. I have fired in competions with my Enfield and reenactments but… not the real soldiers in the CW.

How are soldier IN THE field going to do that? They did not have empty/unused cartridges laying around and no where were they issued or available. They were made in a factory and shipped as rolled and bundled. It's like asking a current soldier to re-load his own rounds for a M16. He can't. Both Goverments never supplied bags of powder to the soldiers either. Perhaps in one instance in an emergency but I highly doubt that either.

Now soldiers did carry extra packs of rounds. There are MANY accounts of this. In Rice Bull's book he talks about having/forced to carry 180 rounds. He said they stuffed them in everything from their pockets, knapsack and haversack. Carrying extra cartridge boxes may have been done but not at the beginning of a campaign. You could pick one up from a dead guy but… that's odd if you consider how much they already had to carry. More than likely you would take the packages and stuff them in your pockets. They certainly never supplied soldiers with extra boxes and the Rebs, being short on most things, would not have had them to just hand out willy-nilly.

Which of the books that you listed has informtion on ordinary soldiers reloading rounds for Springfields or Enfield and carrying extra boxes?

Oh and I am basically asking about infantrymen with rifles and not carbines, pistols, etc.

>>In the case of the US, carrying extra is a common idea for americans. My grandfather was in the cavalry at the end of the 19th and the beginning of the 20th and regularly said "you can never carry too much ammo or water". My dad was an ops guy in WW2 and made the same observation. I have photos of both looking like pack mules in this respect.

Not just US troops. My grandfather was a UK tank driver in North Africa in 1941. His crew used to load their tank to the gunwales with extra 2-pounder ammo. They would often carry 200 rounds more than standard load.

Hi

Avid, I am not sure what you are questioning! Hmm, loos poweder. Lets start with muzzle loaders, I NEVER use pre made cartridges. Oh, I may make some up for some reason.

So, I am not sure that is your question.

And I HAVE used loose powder on the paper cartridge guns. One, muzzle loading them. With the sharpes, you roll the round like rolling up a cigarette. Twist off the end. when you put it in the breach, the breach slices off the "tail". With my gun, I have never seen a proper factory round!

Of course Rim fire isn't reloaded in the field. But there is a type of early cartridge gun that uses a canvas or brass that doesn't burn up with the shot. These rely on a separate cap with a small hole in it. And the users usually kept used brass and reloaded them as I mentioned above.

But the essense is that boxes held 40, the ammo came in paper wrapped blocks of 20, and it was reportedly common to unwrap two blocks and load your own box, and then carry extra blocks of 20 wherever you could.

Spencers didn't immediately get the carrier that would hold 6 pre-loaded tubes, but the shooters kept the tubes and reloaded them from the 20 round blocks, and excess rounds were kept in pockets to use the weapons as a SS when the tube was empty, I believe.

R