"Is the gamer's dilemma quantity over quality?" Topic

Is the gamer's dilemma quantity over quality? So many people complain about have a huge pile of unpainted metal but they also complain about how expensive miniatures are. It seems to me that the real problem is that instead of spending quality time painting quality miniatures that they already own, they instead buy more lead. Thus quantity over quality.

I guess you can say it's I have more things that I want to do than I have time to do. I have a bunch of projects that I'm working on or which I find interesting but I'm limited by the time I can devote to it. For instance, I'm painting a bunch of 6mm WSS figures right now but I know I need to paint some 6mm SYW Russians for a game coming up in July, but I'm also interested in painting some 28mm SYW figures in order to play Sharp Practice.

I am interested in too many things & don't have enough time to paint. Now if I were interested only in the Carlist War I would have the finest army for that period but unfortunately I also like most things colonial, Napoleonics,7 YW, AWI, FPW, the Crimea, Tex-Mex,ACW ….

Another question: "are we figure painters or wargamers?"

I bet most of us spend more time planning, buying and painting figures than we do actually wargaming with them. How many of us have gone gung ho on building up and army, then playing it for a couple of games before storing the figures away in the figurative dustbin of history?

I often wonder why I don't play more games with the stuff that I already have, rather than build more and more armies.

On the quality issue: are you referring to the quality of the figures or the quality of the paint job? I would think that most of us do the best job that we possibly can when it comes to painting the figures, so perhaps "quality" is a subjective variable that depends on the painting skill of the individual.

Unpainted figures are no good to wargamers if they aren't painted and organized into armies.

Wargamers complain about quality, and cost. You could half the price and they'd still complain about the cost. :-)

I am most definitely a gamer first, and a painter dead last.
I enjoy actually playing the games above all else and any time spent painting takes me away from that.

As you might expect, my paintjobs aren't that great or detailed as I mostly want the figures recognizable as belonging to army "X" so I can get them on the table and play with them. I do spend much more time and invest better paintjobs on my heroes or leaders.

For quality vs quantity I've always been cheap and will always look for the best "deal" for the minis I want. Sometimes that means used, sometimes it means a smaller scale to get more minis for the same amount of money spent, but I'll only use minis I like the looks of so I have at least reasonable expectations of quality.

I am absolutely spoiled by all the great 1/72 plastics out there for several periods, but still prefer 28mm for SciFi games and all my RPGs. I love what Rackham has done with their AT-43 line (I play Therians). 28mm and pre-painted so I can use them right out of the box. And I'll probably be starting a Red Blok army soon for the same reason.

For "Sharp Practice", I'll be using a lot of 1/72 plastics for larger games and switching to 28mm figures for smaller skirmish ones.

I see it more as a pereceived inequity in cost, when Company "A" can sell a figure for as little as a tenth of what Company "B" charges for a comparable figure. There are those that will argue that a difference in quality makes them incomparable. But quality is often a subjective measure, whereas price is not.

Allen

There is a certain company which issues membership cards that allow a 40% discount. About a third of their figures are comparable* with anything that the best can do. Unfortunately, a third is average, and a final fraction is something that takes a lot of work to make passable. Like making the riders fit on the damn horses.
I look at the 33% Very Good, and wonder why the same company cannot make the rest like that.
Anyway, this is ~$.60 versus ~$3.00 which is more like 20% than 10%, but the argument is valid.
The fact that Company A "could" sculpt like Company B if they tried, and sell it for 20% of B's price is more than slightly annoying.

*Well, if you just put drops in your eyes… Follow along with me for argument's sake…

I think (although I'm not quite sure) that what I mean by quality is not only the quality of the paint job but also the quality of the miniatures. Many people are happy to spend less on an Old Glory army than spend money on a Perry army, for example. Or, people are willing to dip their miniatures rather than paint them well. Or people are willing to go for more armies at a smaller scale, rather than spending the time putting together a finely painted army. I think for the gamer the quantity of miniatures is more important. I admit to wanting quantity, but not at the expense of quality. Of course, quality is largely subjective. I don't think it's as subjective as some think. Otherwise, we'd all be playing with chits or hair curlers.

The trouble is that given one figure and two wargamers you will have at least three opinions on what the 'quality' of the figure is.

Quality is highly subjective and influenced by too many factors (some having nothing to do with the figure or its sculpting) to make any kind of a rational 'measurement' of it.

A 'reasonable' price is also not easily determined either. A small, specialised range with a limited market may need to be priced above, say, Romans or French Napoleonics simply because the seller can't get bulk sales quickly enough to offset design and mould costs at the same price.

Keeping on with this Quality/Value for Money seems to me just a few bored gamers looking for an argument now that they can't call each other names on CA. It won't (and can't) go anywhere useful so why keep on about it.

My problem is that I have more cents than brains :)

"Keeping on with this Quality/Value for Money"

That's not my point.

Not an argument: answering a question that was asked.

John, I'll stand by the 10%, and take it a step further, or "to the next level", as the kids say. In Sash and Saber's recent sale, the company(ies) were able to offer very nicely modelled abd accurate 28mm ACW figures for as little as fifty cents apiece, when purchased in unit packs. I don't think they did this to lose money.

In their recent re-releases of older character models:

link

…Foundry kindly offers to sell you a single figure for $10.50.

Very nice models, to be sure, but what is it about Lady killdear that makes her twenty-one times more valuable than an equally nicely-designed ACW infantryman?

Yes, Gildas has answered several aspects of the question. But not the discrepancy in intrinsic value.

Allen

I have found that I do not care for some of the "higher quality' figures available, prefering instead some of the "lesser quality" ones. This is mostly because my desire for rapid painting, sculpts that suit my painting style, and my preference for figure styles is not as well served by the "better" figures.

This does not really have anything to do with price. I pay a higher price for the 6mm I like than I would for the ones I don't. I collect 40mm which are priced at or above (in some cases far above) the prices I pay for 28mm. Some of the cheapest 15mm are sculpted in a style I don't like painting.

For me the quantity in collection comes from being largely a solitairy gamer who is interested in far too many eras of history. If I could ever settle on just one period I already have enough figures to provide me with more than I would ever need. Alas there is always that new project clamouring for my attention before I finish the last one.

The OFM said, "There is a certain company which issues membership cards that allow a 40% discount."

Ah John, you must know the secret handshake. That certain company does not issue those membership cards so much as sell them for $50 USD a year. My arithmetic tells me that I have to spend another $125 USD on top of that at 40% discount to 'get ahead' of what simply paying full whack at the point of purchase would cost.

So, if you plan on spending $200 USD or more per year with that company – and it certainly offers enough worthwhile merchandise where heads do not whirl about in 'Excorcist' fashion to justify the membership – you'll be ahead.

If not, you are simply adding to Mr. Dunaway's bank account.

10mm and 6mm can give you both quantity and quality.

"That certain company does not issue those membership cards so much as sell them for $50 USD USD a year."

I suspect that for many members of both that program and another, now defunct one, the "entry fee" represents a piddling percentage of the annual savings.

At least I *hope* I'm not the only one buying that much…

Allen

Allen. You changed the "apples and oranges" metric to "kumquats and grapefruit". I stand corrected. I try not to think about Foundry, and don't even know what a pack of "normal" figures from them sells for now. Besides, they are SOOOO 2002 anymore.

Senor Squint. I do pay that much and more, a year. But soft! Is that the UPS truck I hear outside?…
My third such order since Historicon.

"My third such order since Historicon."

I am relieved.

Allen

nycjadie

I believe part of your answer is also founf in what gamers want to accomplish. You have stated in other threads that you only purchase about 200 fugures a year, and appears that you consentrate on skrimish level gaming. Thus, you can can afford the time and money for more pricer figures as well as time spent on painting.

The gamer wanting to do battles that respresent something more than skrimish games desire to spread their money out more to get a larger quanity of figures, while at the same time painting a more rapid rate to get the desired figurers on the table. They do so, mainly in part because they want to game want they desire without having to wait several years to put on that game.

Thus, it may not be an issue that people are willing to give up quality to have quanity, but more of an issue that they desire quanity inorder to fulfil a dream about a deired game. They don't look at their paint jobs as being of less quality, but severing the purpose of get figures to the table. And, in mass, those figures will have all the appearance (due to sheer size) as thus that you spent longer hours on and make a very impressive viginate.

Is this just an issue of price? Some people like one thing while another chooses someting else --Isn't this why restaurants have menus? One thing for sure --based on the size of the booth,the staff,and the amount of figs they seem to move I would assume a certain company has way more followers then one might expect for whatever reason -- and I highly doubt that most people would spend there money if the product was all that e? After all, is not quality and beauty all in the eye of the beholder?

Miniatureships:

I only paint about 200 miniatures a year, I buy many times more than that!

I think you hit my idea well. Gamers are more interested in quantity than quality. Therefore, quantity becomes the larger concern over quality.

BTW – I never concerned this thread with quality of individual miniatures. My comments were regarding the gamer's dilemma – more unpainted miniatures than anything else.

nycjadie, How do you describe quality in a miniature? Especially if you do not name a company or a designer? Is it just possible that enough people disagree with you on the issue of what quality really is? How much of these concepts are goverened by clever marketing? I think gamers are interested in both, and if one company hits a nice balance between these two concerns it will make the consumer purchase? Also, I think there are two seperate and completly different buisness models at work here and each have a specific target audience?

Maybe quality means painted. Maybe quality means based. I think you're misconstruing my point and viewing it much more narrowly and differently than I had described in my other posts. My attempts to get the thread back on point have failed miserably.

Well I think Minatureships understands their particular market very well. Kudos for the business acume. Like most wargamers I have far more minis than I can reasonably paint in a given time. I have over the years attempted to cull the wide range of interests so that I can focus more. Alas that has proven somewhat difficult. However I think I am in the minority in that I want both qualtiy(i.e well painted figures) and the quantity. Miniatureships makes a good point that in mass average paint jobs are not so much an issue as is the breath of the overall apperance of the massed armies. Yet I take great pride when running a wargame at a convention that not only do the massed forces look good but when that person comes by the table, asks to look at a figure, picks it up and says, "Wow, great paint job. Did you paint these?" I beam and say of course I did.

So I look at figures much as I would the quality of paper or canvas I would use before begining an illustration. A poorly sculpted figure is not likely to get painted no matter how little I paid for it where a good or excellent sculpt will. Sadly it means I sit with many projects that hopefully will one day see paint and play as I will not do a rushed paint job. However, I have learned to go for varing levels of quality in order to get rank and file figure done or what is sometimes called gamer quality.

Mayby i did not understand the original question. As far as the overall quality issue i have argued for years that the actual figure means very little. I have seen a beautiful Artizan Figure butchered by a horrible paint job. I have alse seen figures that were suppose to be of lesser quality that the time spent on the painting and basing had turned them into a little masterpiece. You did in your last sentence ask "quality time painting quality miniatures"? My question then is -- Is it the miniature that is quality or the overall presentation of the miniature?

Back on track: I am torn between the two. On the one hand I like the quality figures from Artizan and Foundry… and on the other hand I like bein able to buy lots of figrues from other manufacturers. I have found that the lowest tier of figures are too coarse for my tastes.

And, by the way, I'm definitely a gamer before I'm a painter. I do a lot of painting in batches and when I have enough figures I take a break from it. I honestly haven't touched a brush since early February.

>At least I *hope* I'm not the only one buying that much…

You aren't alone Allen. I have three boxes of OG inbound now.

I think the quality issue for OG is overplayed. They keep adding new, and excellent, sculpts. People are thinking of their old stuff when they complain about quality.

Neil
reinforcementsbypost.com

Compared the the price of my time to paint them and the space required to store them, the cost of miniatures is irrelevant – which doesn't stop me from taking pride in looking for bargains. Who said wargamers were rational, given a choice between, say, an MMS Valentine at 11.95 or a crappy resin Frontline one for 3.99, Frontline win hands down every time.

I don't have a huge pile of unpainted lead as I would find it too oppressive and wasteful. I buy what I need, paint it, find some place to put it and then start on the next lot. Perhaps I am unusual in this.

Painting cost more time than money.
Buying costs more money and very little time.
So it's not quality vs quantity.
It's time vs money.

I guess many TMPers have more money than time to spend on this hobby.

"Gamers are more interested in quantity than quality"

If that were the case, the company that offers 1000 10mm figures for $35 USD -- I forget their name, but they are out there -- would have a license to print money.

Personally, I am interested in the best price performer. I want to pay the least I have to for the best figure I can afford for the game I want to put on the table, budgeted to be pruchased not much more rapidly than I can paint them.

When I fail to make this set of objectives it's a failure, not a preference.

"what is it about Lady killdear that makes her twenty-one times more valuable than an equally nicely-designed ACW infantryman?"

The value of a thing is that which it will fetch upon the open market -- I don't think miniatures have an "intrinsic" value over their reclaimed metal price.

"The value of a thing is that which it will fetch upon the open market -- I don't think miniatures have an "intrinsic" value over their reclaimed metal price."

That assumes that they are selling any. It's like the $100 USD Kobe hamburger. If nobody buys them, do they really sell them?

I buy what I want, I paint what I want. End of story, and no dilema at all.

You seem to be suggesting that paying more for a miniature makes it "higher quality". That's absurd.
If you want hightly detailed figures, you should be gaming with models instead of miniatures. Then again, they cost a fraction, so you are unlikely to do that since they wouldn't be "quality".

"You seem to be suggesting that paying more for a miniature makes it "higher quality"."

When did I suggest that? I am stating that for many, it seems that people buy more miniatures than they paint or play or (insert whatever) with. Thus, the dilemma is quantity over quality. Others might have suggested that more money equals better figures, but that wouldn't be an argument regarding quality but of value.

NycJadie, :) Your fighting a losing battle.

Personally I have been collecting, painting, and playing for around 12 years now. I am finally in a place where I 'know' what I want to paint and to play.

Prior to that I would buy anything that even sideways interested me. I had lots of unpainted figures, and little in completed figures, units, armies whatever.

I was a bit lost in what I wanted out of the hobby but I have finally got to a point where I know exactly what I want to play. Now I am focusing on painting and making sure I have everything I need to do it.

So in my teens it was quantity, but now that I have matured a bit it is now quality.

You are so right…

Is the question about the impulse purchase of unnesessary product or is it about "quantity" and "quality" ?????

I just need more time to paint and play. If i won the lottery, I could devote enough time to my unpainted SCW minis:-(

"It's like the $100.00 USD USD Kobe hamburger. If nobody buys them, do they really sell them?"

If you make a dumb business plan, you eventually go under. at $10 USD each I expect they are selling them; but no one is buying two.

Is the question about the impulse purchase of unnesessary product or is it about "quantity" and "quality" ?????

It was about impulse purchases.

Quantity of unpainted lead VS Quality "usable" painted figures.

The catch phrase use of Quality vs Quantity were a bit confusing for most as they were used in a different context. :)

"If you make a dumb business plan, you eventually go under. at $10 USD USD each I expect they are selling them; but no one is buying two."

I'm sure they're selling them. But one figure is not a business plan. And the same miniatures that they gave away free are now selling on eBay for far less than $10. USD

I suspect one individual can paint 200 french soldiers in a week to what some would feel is a pretty poor standard and yet that individul like how they look on the table , has amassed the armies he wants, is proud of his collection and feels that it is good quality as it has reached his expextations and desires. Another person may labor over one figure for hours and even days to reach his goal. I drive a cheap car that gets good gas milage --have had it for years and consider it the best car I ever had --"QUALITY" !!! anyway to me. others would stick there nose's up at it. as far as unpainted lead and soon to become unpainted plastics as well? Don't you think that is a part of the fiber of the overall hobby? We are after all "collectors"?