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"Japanese Carriers at Midway." Topic


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13 May 2008 11:05 a.m. PST
by Editor in Chief Bill

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grywolf113 May 2008 9:02 a.m. PST

One question that has always occurred to me. One of the US carriers at Midway sailed with a scratch air group. I believe that at least part of the Saratoga air group was embarked at the last moment.

From what I gather, the two sisters Zuikaku and Shokaku had suffered different types of losses at Coral Sea. one sister had battle damage, another had lost a good part of her integral air group. If that is correct, why didnt the IJN swap groups ala the US and have one more deck available at Midway? Or is my knowledge off?

Dan Wideman II13 May 2008 9:42 a.m. PST

grywolf. Your knowledge is a little off. I don't know about a scratch air group, but the US carriers at Midway were Enterprise, Hornet, and Yorktown. Lexington had just been sunk at Coral Sea, and IIRC Saratoga was on the west coast for repairs from a torpedo hit. (She was cursed that way it seems)

If one of the carriers did have a scratch airgroup at Midway I would susspect it was the Yorktown. She had just been in Coral Sea vs Shokaku, Zuikaku and Shoho (sunk). She barely made repairs in time for Midway.

The Japanese carriers at Midway were Akaki, Kaga, Soryu, and Hiryu. There was also at least one CVL (Hosho I think) with the BB division sailing seperately from Nagumo's carrier force.

Hope that helps you find what you are looking for.

Dan

dmclellan13 May 2008 10:14 a.m. PST

Grywolf,

Yes, you are correct about the Saratoga's air group, or at least part of it, being transferred to one of the other carriers. I don't have my references at work, so I can't tell you which one it was. Morrison's volume on Midway and Shattered Swords both report this. Moving air groups around between carriers and land bases continued through Guadalcanal, if not longer. See the First Team at Guadalcanal for more on this.

As to the Shokaku/Zuikaku, Shattered Swords covers this in quite some detail. The concept of swapping air groups between carriers was not a part of Japanese doctrine. It may not have occurred to them to do so, but it if did, they would reject the idea.

This also appears in Japanese land based air in New Guniea, where their aircraft would sit until new parts arrived. Allied forces, on the other hand, would gladly cannabalize one plane to make another plane available for flight duty.

David

Tachikoma13 May 2008 10:21 a.m. PST

The Japanese air groups were integral to their carriers – the aviation support personnel were all part of the ship's company. Transferring them would have been a logistical nightmare. In the US Navy the support personnel were part of the air group and could be switched between carriers along with the aircraft without much difficulty.

You are correct, part of Saratoga's air group was embarked on the Yorktown just prior to sailing for the battle.

Jovian113 May 2008 10:40 a.m. PST

IIRC – one of the airgroups on the Yorktown was the Marine fighter wing VMF-124 at Coral Sea and Midway. So, they were easily moved between ships. I could be mistaken though.

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian13 May 2008 11:07 a.m. PST

However, the force flying from the island of Midway was definitely scratch.

Dan Wideman II13 May 2008 12:34 p.m. PST

Wow. Based on rereading after the other responses I totally misinterpreted that question. grin Oops.

Oddball13 May 2008 1:02 p.m. PST

Japanese doctrine had the air groups stay with the carriers. The US would move in what was need in terms of aircraft to make a flat top operational.

One of the big failures of Japanese plans.

Read "Shattered Sword" for a very good and new perspective on the Japanese operations at Midway. Lots of stuff that has not been reported before.

CharlesRollinsWare13 May 2008 1:40 p.m. PST

Grywolf1;

There are a great many reasons why the USN could, and the IJN could not.

The USN needed USS Yorktown (CV-5) to go. Nimitz was prepared to send Spruance, with USS Enterprise (CV-6) and USS Hornet (CV-8), alone, but he did not what to. Thus, the USN was inspired to get Yorktown repaired.

Second, the air group change on Yorktown was a planned event. Yorktown's Air Group had been in action with but one brief respite, since January. Aircrew casualties had been significant, but not terrible. None the less, the folks were tired and it was easier to swap in Saratoga's three fresh squadrons that had been at Pearl since January just itching to got to sea. Thus, VT-3 replaced VT-5, VB-3 replaced VS-5, and VF-3 replaced VF-42. However, of the three new squadrons, VF-3 had been striped of most of its pilots so, in reality, the CO, "Jimmy" Thach had to "acquire" 16 of VF-42s pilots to outfit his squadron. As VS-3 was actually on the west coast with Saratoga, one of the two SBD squadrons on Yorktown had to stay, and VB-5 got the call – after which it was unofficially renamed VS-5 which caused so much confusion at Pearl in the next two weeks that it took all kinds of paperwork and orders to fix the mess! However, the squadrons were veteran squadrons that, other than being new to Yorktown, were ready for their job. So, in reality, it was not really a "scratch" group. 2 1/2 squadrons were veterans that had been practicing together for months, and 1 1/2 were combat veterans from Yorktown.

In the USN, the switch was easy because the squadron integrally contained all the necessary elements (aircraft, aircrew, and maintenance personnel).

Conversely, the IJN squadrons contained the aircrew and planes only. The maintenance personnel belonged to the ship. Further, the ships squadrons were not truly independent units. Rather, they were part of the carrier division's formation. Thus, the presence of both elements of the division was necessary to train personnel properly.

When the 5th Carrier Division left the Coral Sea Shokaku was gravely hurt, and it carried but 10 unoperational aircraft and virtually no aircrew. Zuikaku, unhurt, carried 25 fighters and 27 strike planes (less than 75% of what she carried and less than 40% of what the division started the battle with). However, of the 27 strike planes, only 12 were either operational or repairable on board. The others were "hors de combat" from .50 caliber MG hits in structural components that required a full factory overhaul. Thus, the ship only had 12 aircraft ready to carry the fight to the enemy when she got to Japan.

On return to Japan, as in all naval services, many personnel were scheduled to move to different assignments. This included many of the veteran aircrew of the two carriers that arrived with Zuikaku. They were going to other carrier units or training establishments. The folks they were replacing had already moved on. Their transfers were, effectively, non-negotiable.

Further, what remained needed to go ashore to acquire, new aircraft and replacement personnel. With a number of Buntai, Chutai and Shotai leaders gone, promotions and transfers to these leadership positions were critical. After the personnel and aircraft arrived, the entire divisional air group needed training time. All of this could have been handled.

However, it was the need for new aircraft, that threw to proverbial "wrench" into the machinery – there wasn't any. Japan had gone to war having already stopped production of the B5N2 attack plane (in preparation for commencing production of the replacement B6N which didn't come out until 1944!) and preparing the do the same in one of two plants making the D3A1 (in preparation for starting production on its replacement, the D3A2). BY early 1942, even with the amazingly light losses in the war to date, the IJN was simply running out of combat strike planes. Heck, even production of the A6M2, which was being produced in significantly higher numbers, simply could not keep abreast of the need for it on the carriers and in the elite land-based Kokutais.

After stripping all the new aircraft available in preparation for Operation MI, several units involved under strength. The 6th Ku, which was to be carried, by the various carriers involved, to Midway for the new bases defense was going with only 33 of its authorized 36 fighter planes and pilots, and 50% of those pilots were only Class C (Class A being the best and Class D the worst). Junyo only managed to get 12 fighter pilots (including several Class C boys) and but 6 aircraft. She would have to utilize the 12 6th Ku aircraft she was transporting, and some of the pilots, to make up the difference. Ryujo was still using many under powered B5N1 attack planes as there were not enough B5N2 models, and she had only just replaced the A5M4 fighter planes she had been using since the war started with but 12 new A6M2s. Zuiho was also operating all B5N1 models, she had just got new A6M2s, and most of her aircrew were Class C as well. Further, none of the carriers had any of the spare aircraft and aircrew that they were authorized to carry. Then there was Hosho, which was only carrying a single Chutai of the outmoded biplane attack planes the B5N1 had replaced (her elevators could not handle the new aircraft) and no fighters, which was only leaving port to provide ASW protection for the main force battleships.

Effectively Japan had simply run out of the ability to replace its losses while struggling get the new carriers into service and to increase the size of the land-based air arm necessary to defend the new Pacific Rim bases.

Of course, all of this was really wasn't important because, as everyone in the IJN knew, the overwhelming force already deployed in the MI operation would simply roll over the astonished and incapable American's as Admiral Yamamoto had forecast. While the men on the new Zuikaku certainly would have liked to have been participants in the war's crowning battle, they were not the "first-team" anyway and just weren't needed to crush the enemy.

Thus, the long of the short of it is the American's "need to get it done" approach to springing their trap was pursed at every level by a commander in chief who was willing to risk everything because he believed in his codebreakers, his carrier commander, and his carriers air staff's ability to utilize their highly trained aircrew to win a battle the enemy was not expecting. Conversely, the Japanese attitude was incredibly lackadaisical because they "knew" that the results had already been "ordained on high" and they giving the Americans a chance to "play out their losing hand".

Hope this hepls.

Mark E. Horan

grywolf113 May 2008 1:53 p.m. PST

Wow. Very detailed answers that supported what I had suspected all along. Differences in practice and doctrine along with supply difficulties on the IJN side. I had no idea that the losses to the air groups of both Zuikaku and Shokaku were that severe.

Many thanks for all the input.

Tachikoma13 May 2008 2:16 p.m. PST

As a further aside into the interchangability of USN carrier squadrons, take another look at the excellent and detailed response above. Prior to the war, squadrons were assigned to a specific carrier on a more or less permanent basis, despite being independant entities. Thus, all of the squadrons normally assigned to Saratoga (CV-3) had -3 in their designations: VF-3, VT-3, VB-3 and VS-3. The Ranger (CV-4) was unusual in that she had two fighter squadrons, which were numbered VF-41 and VF-42. As can be seen above, Saratoga's fighter squadron (VF-3) replaced one of the Ranger squadrons (VF-42) aboard the Yorktown.

Sergeant Ewart13 May 2008 3:17 p.m. PST

Jovian1
You are very badly mistaken – VMF 124 was not even formed as a squadron at the time of Midway or the Coral Sea!!!!

marcus arilius13 May 2008 3:42 p.m. PST

one of the more interesting facts from the (Shattered Sword)was that it took the U.S. over an hour to get it's first attack groups launched. The Japanese Launched the entire Midway strike in under ten minutes. They truly were the First team of the IJN. The other was the lack of a Flag bridge on Akagi kept a free flow of ideas from being voiced in private.

Dan Wideman II14 May 2008 10:33 p.m. PST

Thanks a lot guys. With all the talk of the Shattered Sword you forced me to go order it from Amazon. Forced me I say! grin While I was there I also HAD to order Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors too! It's all your fault.

Dan

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

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