"Chinese Officers Train by playing our old games..." Topic

From the Strategy Page:

link

"Okay Comrades, today's training session will be Avalon Hill's 'Rise and Fall of the Third Reich'!"

Guiscard

So, the Commies are training using Dunnigan's old SPI games? Whew. That's a relief.

They're fine tuning thier armies by playing the East is Red. Putin better start playing Objective: Moscow to prep for it. :)

Here's an idea for subverting your enemy: persuade their training colleges to use Warhammer 40,000. That way, all their officers and NCOs will take of their helmets and run around with swords rather than bothering with all that ineffective "shooting" stuff.

Ah, you mean like the Japanese in WW2! I didn't think Warhammer 40k was that old! ;)

Even better if they have to run balancing a chainsaw over their heads.

It even says that prior to smuggling in these dangerous strategic assets the Chinese were usuing Kriegspiel to train their officers. Am i getting this right?

If i didn't know better, I would've thought this was stolen from some The Onion article. I'm sure whoever wrote this bit was trying to make it sound sinister and alarming though.

Don't forget that the Rooskies used to buy a bunch of model kits every time that Revell came out with a new submarine or fighter model, and send them back in the diplomatic pouch.

I would love to know if they have any rules arguments, or cheat.

"I would love to know if they have any rules arguments, or cheat."

No, but I'm sure they do what we do. Alter the stats of their equipment based on what they 'know' to be true so as to ensure the Chinese player always wins.

I would love to know if they have any rules arguments, or cheat.

That'll happen when they progress to miniatures games a few years from now.

The article states that export of board wargames was illegal in the 70s:

The FBI conducted an investigation of illegal 
export of these commercial wargames in the late 1970s.

What a load of bunkum, surely?
--
Tim

Tim
That really gives Dunnigan's appearances as a "military expert" on cable news a real aura of authenticity, doesn't it?

I remember one time where Al Quaeda failed to shoot down an El Al jet taking off from Kenya, and he cautioned them to keep fresh batteries in the controls and keep up on the maintenance.

I'm not sure who Dunnigan is? IS he some commentator on CNN who used to make board games?
--
Tim

As long as we hold back the errata, optional rules, and additional scnearios we should be OK…

Great idea, Steve. I think that all the skulls, furs and books on their uniforms would slow things down a bit. Not to mention the poles on their backpacks, with who knows what at the top. And the fluorescent colors, don't forget those, Chinese officer corps! Warhammer 40K reflects the most up to date Western military thought!

Jim Dunnigan was the founder of SPI and Chief Poobah of Strategy and Tactics magazine.
He is the dude who turned wargames into "conflict simulations".

That is his website.

He has also shown up on FOX and CNN as a "military expert".

It's been quite a few years now, but a delegation of Chinese officers visited the National Training Center and observed force-on-force training. They seemed a little bit uncomfortable with the idea that it was free play on both sides, and that the OPFOR frequently "won".

Allen

"Wargaming systems like this were first used by the American military in the 1970s, and the export of such devices, even the ones commercially available (in book stores, alongside books on military history and current affairs), was illegal. The FBI conducted an investigation of illegal export of these commercial wargames in the late 1970s."

Somebody is smoking some serious dope here. Illegal to export commercial wargames? Farcical.

"It turned out that the Chinese had someone ship the wargames to third countries, like Hong Kong or Singapore, and thence on to China. The FBI visited the publishers of the commercial wargames and examined mailing lists, trying to find out who the Chinese agents were."

Now I would believe that the FBI took an interest in sales of commercial wargames. And if wargames publishers chose to give the FBI information, that's their business. I have previoualy heard urban legends to that end. On the other hand, we have officially released a heck of a lot of information about training simulations through the years to the Chinese, which I know from personal experience.

"Nothing more was heard about the Chinese use of these systems after that, and it was believed that Chinese versions of these games were only used in secret projects (to develop new tactics to examine the outcome of possible future wars). The new, unclassified, training system shows signs of having been around for a while, apparently as a classified (secret) system."

As of, say, ten years ago, we had a pretty good take on what the Chinese were using for combat simulations at various levels, including the laser engagements systems that they had purchased--quite legally--from the same Western companies that supply various NATO armies.

Sounds to me like someone is starting to build their resume as an "expert" on the "inscrutable Chinese" with an eye to the future.

Or I could just be overly cynical. Too many years in the intel business will do that.

Allen

here is some info,

link

I remmeber when spi did the Next War they needed information on US airpowerin Europe so they ask their readers to send information on the airbases near them,
Each entry got a chance to win the game. The Airforce had a fit for the information publish was very detail on what was based where. Who knew so many kids of service persaonal play wargames and they just sent in the open information that they had on dad's unit.

The FBI made many trips to the offices of SPI in the 1970',
and the Russian embassy in New York was a good coustomer. Hey maybe Freedom in the Galaxy gave them ideals?

It has always puzzled me that the defense establishment just would not conseder commerical wargames or minatures as training tools. Minatures when used where shown to be the best way to teach troop vehicle identification.

Lord Ghee

It has always puzzled me that the defense establishment just would not conseder commerical wargames or minatures as training tools.

Possibly because of NIH (not invented here).
Or, more likely, because the games were "designed" and "developed" by nerds on a deadline and sugar and caffeine rushes.
Surely, there is no one left actually laboring under the illusion that they represented reality in any way, is there? They represent the equivalent of well researched term papers that tell the teacher what he wants, and nothing more. Fulda Gap this month's issue, the Alamo next.
I congratulate Dunnigan on continuing his famous impersonation of an expert.

"I remmeber when spi did the Next War they needed information on US airpowerin Europe so they ask their readers to send information on the airbases near them,
Each entry got a chance to win the game. The Airforce had a fit for the information publish was very detail on what was based where. Who knew so many kids of service persaonal play wargames and they just sent in the open information that they had on dad's unit."

I bought that SPI game a few years back from a shop in Sheffield and when I read the blurb and they asked about updating them about changes in ETO forces location I did wonder if it was some elaborate Soviet sting!!!!!
I wouldn't put anything past the FBI/CIA as far as paranoia goes…They made up Soviet super weapons (like the 40mm Shilka upgrade with SAMs on it/ MIG31 superplane) to get more defence funding!!

"It has always puzzled me that the defense establishment just would not conseder commerical wargames or minatures as training tools. Minatures when used where shown to be the best way to teach troop vehicle identification."

They did. A generation of US tankers and mech infantrymen trained using GHQ miniatures and Dunn-Kempf rules (modified WRG modern rules). GHQ sold a shedload of models to the Army for both wargames and vehicle ID. Both Quality Castings and QRF's wargame vehicle ranges started out as vehicle recognition ranges.

Several of the battalion/brigade command and staff training simulations used by both the US and British armies started as modifications of commercial board games. And commercial games were used very frequently as unofficial training simulations. John Curry has been collecting rules used by the various forces, for republication; the ones currently available are listed here:

link

"Surely, there is no one left actually laboring under the illusion that they represented reality in any way, is there?"

The military labors under the illusion that their combat developments simulations, coded by professional modelers at hige expense, represent reality. Trust me, they don't.

"I wouldn't put anything past the FBI/CIA as far as paranoia goes…They made up Soviet super weapons (like the 40mm Shilka upgrade with SAMs on it/ MIG31 superplane) to get more defence funding!!"

The FBI made up… what? Are you referring to the 2K22/2S6? It's real. The MiG-31 is real. Not made up.

Allen

…QRF's wargame vehicle ranges started out as vehicle recognition ranges…

QRF still does sell it's vehicles to various armed forces around the world (not just the UK) for recognition and TEWT exercises. Canada and New Zealand have been 2 of our more recent.

They made up Soviet super weapons (like the 40mm Shilka upgrade with SAMs on it/ MIG31 superplane)…

As Allen says, they are not made up.

2S6: link
Or if you don't like Wiki: link
Try looking up Tunguska or 2S6 on Youtube – amazing footage of it firing.
Though to be fair Allen, the 2S6 only has a pair of 30mm, not 40mm ;-)

MiG31: link

One of my weirder civil service "extra-volunatry duties" was keeping the F-117 logistics office appraised of what the model aircraft community was seeking about that a/c. I never knew what they did with the info, but if the Japanese ultra-aviation fan magazine "Koku-Fan" was soliciting the folks staking out Area 51 for "photos of the unseeable" my contact Greg was very interested and appreciative.

Maybe the aircraft never existed, and the US military copied it from the plastic kits that came out :-)