"15mm Medieval Scots, are you interested?" Topic

I am considering adding a whole range of Medieval Scots to the Eureka Miniatures 300 program.

If you are not familiar with the program, see more here:
eurekamin.com.au/custom.php

The 300 club basically lets you suggest any historical miniature, or army, and if it gets 600 figures pre-ordered by 10 diffrent buyers then the figures go into production.

I have always wished to collect and game a medieval Scots army but have never found a range that I am truly pleased with. Having the chance to describe my own army (historically of course) and have them made is just too good to pass up.

The problem is, if they are never going to get made there is no point in me suggesting them and sending all my research info/ sources to Eureka.

Hence, my post. I am interested in knowing if there are enough of you out there that would be willing to purchase these figures to make them worth doing.

I am interested in ordering 200 figures right off the bat. That means I only need 9 other people to pre-order 400 other figs (thats really only about 10 DBA armies, or 3-5 DBM, Medieval Warfare, or FoG armies!).

I intend this army to represent from 1250 to 1487 (Wars of Independance, 100 Years War, and WotR).

Here are a list of the figures I would propose for the range:
1) Mounted General
2) Mounted Standard Bearer
3) Mounted Knights (3 poses)1x w/ lance 2x hand weapons.
4) 2 packs (or 8 poses) of spearmen in padded armor, long spear, various helms, shield.
5) Unarmored spearmen, 4 poses w/ shield (intended as less well armored or rear rank spearmen).
6) Archers, 4 poses
7) Ettrick Archers, 4 poses, more "hunter" looking, w/ shortbows
8) Dismounted knights, 4 poses, various arms
9) Foot soldiers, 4 poses, padded armor, various arms (maybe a glaive, 2x handed axe, small axe n shield, sword and shield, again for rear ranks of schiltrom or general foot troops).
10) Men of the Isles, 4 poses, padded or chain armor, axes n swords.
11) Highlanders, 4 poses, probbably pretty rabbly looking!
12) Small Folk, Ribaulds, Peasants, Camp Followers, etc…
either 4 or 8 poses armed with anything they can find.
13) Foot Standard brearer, padded armor.
14) Hobilars, Lt. Cavalry, 3 poses, padded armor, hand weapons n shield.

That should about cover it, but I'd welcome all input.
I considered putting in a 4x pack of specific personalities too (Say Bruce, Wallace, The Black Douglas, and Anthony Beck ?) if there is enough interest in the range.

I welcome your thoughts. And if you are a "yes" vote, please give me an idea how many figures you would be willing to pre-order from Eureka. Keep in mind, pre-ordering does NOT commit you to buying. Once 600 orders are reached each person who pre-ordered will be recontacted by Eureka to see if they are still interested before being charged.

In closing, lets do it for Bruce, lets do it for Wallace, but most of all…..lets do it for FREEDOM….are you with me?!

(sorry bout that last bit)

Will the figs fit in with OG15s?

Good question. I just put a Eureka Samurai fig next to an OG fig and they are they exact same height. So I'll say "yes" they will.

If you were going to do it with 28mm figures, then I would be interested. Good luck on your project though. They should be interesting figures.

It is my favortie army and even though I have about 800 pts worth (in DBM speak) I would love to buy more for know good reason.

Be nice if they fitted with our Medieval Scots range too

Geoff
quickreactionforce.co.uk

My interest is piqued, but I wonder whether designing/requesting figures to fill out/correct/expand an existing range--like the Feudal Castings range at QRF--is better than going from full-on scratch. My main beef with most medieval Scots/Irish ranges is that it seems many sculptors translate galloglaich as "stiff-posed" to judge by the wooden castings in quilted armor that I see.

I would be very interested in such galloglaich figures, some really good Islemen and Highlanders, and some pikemen.

Sorry, no. Except possibly for the Islemen and Highlanders your 1250 to 1487 timeframe is too broad to reflect the changes in dress and armour during this period. It's like creating a range of 1st Century AD Romans in lorica segmata and selling them as a Roman army from Punic Wars to the Fall of Rome.

Take a look at Feudal Castings Feudal/Medieval Scots, now available from LKM/QRF. Notice that when sculpting the range, Steve Shaw created different packs that depicted the types of costume and armour throughout the timespan you are contemplating. This is the way to go, unless you are going all Ebob Miniatures and Braveheart in 15mm of course.

Feudals Islesmen are "stiff posed" but I like that as they look like the warriors as they appear on the gravestones.

The Flodden era plate armoured Scots are lovely miniatures and there's also have a cracking Robert the Bruce in 15mm!

Cheers
Mark

Quite familiar with the Feudal Castings lot. I like a few of the figs very much and some others not so much. I just dont want a range where I feel like I'm settleing for whats available. I think Eureka (or if Grumpy from Grumpy's miniatures takes on the job) can do a better job.

The movie you reference will have no influence on the miniatures what so ever.

The time line I give is a reference point for the army. Thats because an unarmored Scotts spearmen at Falkirk would look little different than an unarmored spearmen at Bosworth. The same for one in a Jack I believe. The modern pictures I have seen of Scots at Otterburn look little different from the earlier period, save for the nobles.

They are not specifically ment to cover the Flodden period.
They will be designed based on armor and clothing of the wars of Independance and early hundred years war. Having those figures present in a WotR battle does really not seem that big of a stretch to me. Plus I (as most players) cant afford to buy a 1314 and a 1485 Scotts army.

Anyway, no knock on the Feudal Casting figs, if this line is produced I will probably mix the 2 lots. I also am using some of their figs to flesh out my WotR English Armies.

Thanks for the input.

Btw, I would certainly consider adding additional Highland/ Isles packs, again, if there was enough interest in these. That would essentially give you 3 armies to build out of the line.

As far as poses go, I'm not a big fan of stiff poses or figures who look like they are standing around in parade formation.

I intend for these to be an active looking lot.

I would be interested in about 90 highlander types as long as they fitted in with OG15s. Also I like very animated figures with lots of different positions.

Any idea on the cost per figure?

In Australian Dollars, the Eureaka packs are .80 for 4 infantry figures and Grumpy are .75 for four. Double each of those for a pack of 3 cavalry figs. Leader figures cost the same as an infantry pack.

Mike, thanks for the number estimate. If the range is ordered I will specify that they fit well w/ OG figs.

If we expand the Highlanders in the range what figures would you like?

Maybe Nobles in mail w/ various hand weapons,
bowmen,
foot troops w/ shield n axe/sword,
foot troops with javalin n shield.

Let me know what you would need.

All source material suggestions are welcomed as well.

Generic armoured figures aren't of much interest to me as I can get these cheaper via. G15s. What I want are wild looking hairy backed, bare bottomed highlanders in tartan waving bloody big swords i.e. Braveheart style.

Lol….I agree that I dont want to do something that everyone else has done before. I think we can get the highlanders looking pretty wild and bare bottomed…not so sure the hairy backs will show up in 15mm. You may have to paint and apply some Lichen.

I believe I miss quoted Eureka in the price quote too (above post). Its more likely .75-80 per figure, not per pack.
My bad.

Mike, by the way….have you ever been to Stirling in Scotland? If you ever do go, you have to go to the Wallace Monument at the foot of the hill known as "Abbey Craig."

This hill overlooks Stirling Castle, Stirling Battlefeild, and Bannockburn. At the foot of the hill is a statue of William Wallace that looks a wee bit too much like an alleged anti-semetic film star.

The locals have taken such a strong dislike to the statue that they kept cutting its head off.

This lead to the statue finally being caged in a meshed fence….despite the fact that the statue has the ironic quote "Freedom" written upon it…lol.

I haven't been to Stirling Scotland, I do live in the Shire of Stirling , Perth….Western Australia so I suppose it's the same thing.

I'm not looking for another scale, but as an increasingly anal purist – please don't go all 'tartan tat' with them. Blah, blah, no tartan as we think of until C18th, blah, lowland armies for Scotland would look just like English armies of same period, blah, highlanders/islemen would be bare-legged but not fantasy barbarians, blah.

Phew. Sorry. Rant over. Check gaddgedlar.com for some nice pictures of troops of the period.

Good luck on the range, though. I failed to find islemen/highlanders I liked in 28mm (the eBob pikemen are lovely, but the highlanders were a bit Mel Gibson for me) – it's woefully under-represented period in most scales it would appear.

"fantasy barbarians" "tartan tat": not gonna happen…
"no tartan as we think of until C18th": well aware…
"but the highlanders were a bit Mel Gibson for me": no interest in doing that, as you should be able to tell from my above posts.
"it's woefully under-represented period in most scales it would appear": I agree…

Thanks for the web page.

PS:

"lowland armies for Scotland would look just like English armies of same period"

I've yet to see a 28 or 15mm Scott w/ a Saltire sewn on his shirt or padded armor.

Mister Rab – all true but whats a Scot army without blue faced, tartan bending, bare bottom, English hating, wildmen highlanders?

Actually thanks for reminding me, the command set should also have some bag pipers, also need some of those famous light infantry haggis hurlers and let's not forget those mounted s of the caber.

Almost all ancient figures are just made up anyway. Most are based on a few coins or grave digs or a few lines of descriptions in a forgotten manuscript.

My own Scots medieval armies are based upon Foundry's Early Hundred Years War range. With some OG (the packs contents were assigned to the painting table or the melt down box as I felt appropriate. I based my figs on locally obtained sources in Aberdeen's various museum and city archives and from Froissart, The Scotichronicon etc, for use in the following battles – Dupplin Moor 1329, Otterburn 1388 and Harlaw 1411.

Buying some earlier mounted and foot knights allowed me to feel happy with stretching to play Bannockburn and the Wars of the Bruce's in Scotland and Ireland as well.

But, would I feel comfortable to use these beyond 1411 or Wallace's war against Edward I. No. Plenty would and good luck to you all. For many people a knight is a knight is a knight. Besides this is a time of comparatively few records and even fewer that are readily available, and all are open to interpretation, reinterpetation and downright missing the point entirely.

In 15mm I never really got beyond DBA early Scots Common and Highland/Isles armies (to fight each other) because my real desire at that time was Courtrai.

Personally, I think you should put your marker in the sand at Otterburn, which is the new Flodden, nicely mid-period, and say "also suitable for…."

By the way, I mentioned the Feudal Flodden armoured plate figs because I particularly like them and wanted to highight to anyone reading this thread that they were worth a look.

Best of luck.
Mark

Oh dear – sorry Uesugi – I wasn't meaning that you didn't know your stuff. It's just one of those knee-jerk things for me and I can't stop myself from opening my mouth (although mostly with my tongue in my cheek – makes it difficult to speak clearly!). I think being very English in Scotland for five years has damaged me on that front ;)

Anyway, good luck on the miniatures range – we do need plenty more miniatures of all scales for this period. And I'd second Mark's suggestion of Otterburn (which in itself is an interesting campaign).

PS – I think the Ebob pikemen have saltires on their padded jacks, but that may just be the paintjob.

No worries Mister Rab. As I said, all info is welcome. My feathers werent ruffled what so ever, just a 4:11am reply post, perhaps lacking some tact.

Marc, thanks for the input as well. Duly noted. I have not seen (nor ever heard of prior to this blog) the Ebob minis.

I am certainly trying to stay as historical as one can with this time frame while still doing something that has not yet been done (correctly). Now I'm not saying these figures will be MORE historic than other Scot figs, but perhaps as historical while being more alive, energetic, and interesting (no static Essex poses).

That should keep the purists and the Braveheart fans happy.

But this line of figs still needs a LOT of support/ interest before it even gets added to the Eureka line.

So no rush here. Please continue to post thoughts. I'll be working on War of the Roses minis (Battle of Barnet in 1:20 scale) and Samurai (Battle of Nagakute 1:40 scale) for the rest of the year.

I'm only a 28mm modeler for medievals, so no, but I can recommend Eureka wholeheartedly. 100 and 300 club are a great way to get things built that aren't covered.

Two points: for foot soldiers, you're mostly giving them axes and one pose with a glaive. In fact, in Scots chronicles, what's called an "axe" is often actually a Lochaber Axe. This is not an axe at all, but it is a polearm surmounted with a bladed head similar to a glaive, backed with a hooked iron rod intended to be used to pull riders from horseback. It is a unique Scots weapon and lowlanders carrying axes were most certainly carrying these. So don't give them glaives or traditional two handed axes. Save the two-handed axes for your highlanders.

Ettrick archers carrying short bows? This old chestnut has been cited and repeated so often its taken as fact, but there is no evidence that Scots lowland archers or Ettrick Forest archers used anything other than what everyone in England and Wales were using – warbows. These troops should be using plain old longbows. If you can't bring yourself to do that (I fully understand :-)), just use a smaller self bow, but the "shortbow" as a weapon was really never used. Otherwise, why would Ettrick archers have any kind of reputation at all?

Finally – I'm with Mark. You really can't cover this whole period with one range. By the time of Otterburn, the Hounskull visor was common, as was the short jupon and armor was nearing full-plate goodness, while at Bannockburn, if funeral effigies and similar are any indication (and I think they certainly are) you would see plenty of chainmail, boiled leather, cyclas and great helms, with the Bascinet just coming into use. These are two very different looking periods, but in between them, you can overlap a number of different styles. By 1400, you're looking at an entirely different knight, full plate, no surcoat or jupon – and by 1487, you're looking at a high-gothic knight in open sallet, bevor, full plate, long sabatons – basically a nearly invulnerable, very light armor, with the best overall protection yet devised. These guys will look entirely different from a Bannockburn era knight.

I'd go with Dupplin Moor as your point to aim at and try to cover from Bannockburn right up to Otterburn, as Mark suggests.

Finally – as Mister Rab points out – don't go all tartan. The highlanders should probably be clothed in a shirt and a belted blanket as the lovely period illustration of the siege of Carlisle shows.

Actually, I think there isn't nearly enough tartan out there. We know that most western European peasant weavers would have worked with basic tartan patterns. In fact, these were really common as period illustrations show. I have yet to see someone have the courage to build a French army with a sizeable infantry component in tartans. I'm tempted to call it plaid, but we all know that's actually a blanket, not a pattern. ;-)

Re: the Lochaber Axe, I am familiar with it but I was under the impression that it did not come into use til the 1500?

Also, re: "period illustration of the siege of Carlisle"

do you have a link to this pic? I'll do a search in the mean time.

No – Lochaber Axe is an older weapon. It was still in use in 1500, and also – if not mistaken – even much later in the civil war. Also called Jedburgh Axes, Barbour describes their use at Bannockburn.

The illustration I refer to is actually several illuminations in the 1316 Charter of Carlisle – I don't have great links (have the illustration in books), but try these:

link

link

You'll see highlanders in plaids (blankets) covering their heads. There appears to be a hat or helmet under the plaids, but who can say? The Perrys based their bidet models for Foundry on these Scots. I just finished painting up about 25 of them. Very nice models – though wrong scale for you, they're still worth a look.

John

Very interesting stuff. They almost look a bit Irish, which would not seem unusual.

To make the army flexible enough for people that want to carry it throught the 100 Years War I will add packs of Nobles on foot (Heavy Infantry) and Armored Archers.

Everybody happy?