"Perfect composition for Prussian and French armies?" Topic

If you had 25 units for a late war Prussian and French army, what would you consider the perfect composition to be? I'm looking for something that would be flexible to fight lots of different battles, with some substitutions where necessary.

The list should be in this style format:
5 line infantry units
2 guard infantry units
3 landwehr lancer units etc.

Thanks -- and if you were wondering, I'm just starting out in the period and would like to put together a French and Prussian army that has close-to-historical ratios while still giving me some flexibility for specific battles.

It's hard to answer the question unless you can tell me what 1 unit equals. Are they battalions?

It would also help to know which part of the Napoleonic wars you are talking about…early, middle or late?

John

Take a historical battle (e.g. Ligny?) and model the French and Prussian orbats from it. By the time you've done that you should have enough units to do any number of smaller or slightly different scenarios. If not you can always add a few …

For an example of what I did, you can look here : link

My army will be 23 units strong at first, so it should give you an idea of a good, balanced force close to what you want.

As Mike as said, the best way is to find some OOB and then add some flavour if you want.

In terms of brigades, I am building my armies in the following proportions:
50% infantry, 25% cavalry and 25% divisional batteries

so that would make by your standards, 12 infantry units, 6 cavalry units and 6 artillery units.

For infantry, you may plan
8 line
4 light
or for color
7 line
3 light
2 guard

As for cavalry
2 lights
2 heavy

it is only a generic suggestion based on what I field usually

cavalry, I meant
2 light
4 heavy

He specified late war.

Why not have a look at these:

link

Assuming one 'unit' equals a battalion, battery or regiment, I'd go with:

French – something based on D'Erlons Corps, say four infantry divisions with 4-6 battalions each, a battery of artillery for each divison, plus a cavalry division with 4 regiments of cavalry and a horse battery.

If you go for the smaller divisions you can do the whole Corps!

Prussian – something based on Pirchs Corps, say two infantry brigades each of 7 battalions, a couple of cavalry brigades (3 regiments ea) and as much artillery as you are happy with – prob a horse btty for each cav brigade, a 6pdr btty for each infantry brigade and maybe a corps 12pdr btty.

Both give a reasonable balance of horse, foot and guns. Troop types you can look up from the orbats.

Before deciding though, you really have to choose if you want your units to represent battalions, Regiments or Brigades.

I have a small article on how to get started on my website, it might help you. The first part is dedicated to Austrians, but the second part (Where to Start?) applies to any armies : link

"you really have to choose if you want your units to represent battalions, Regiments or Brigades."

And what rules you intend to use may well affect that decision.

It totally depends on what year you are attempting to represent, and as stated previously, what rules.

For me a battalion / battery / cav regiment is a "unit". So you are talking about a couple of divisions.

Not sure how you would fit "guards" into that.

I think others are correct in saying you should pick a historical formation as a basis and work from there.

mjc

I like and use that 50/25/25 as a guide too. I use it to manage the painting as well to stave off insanity. (2 Infantry units, a Cav unit and then an Art Battery) I've never stuck to that 100% but it's "the plan".

I plan on battalions and using the historical formation makes sense.

Thanks for the input.

My late war Prussian army, based on Blucher's of 1815 is:
6 line battalions
1 battalion of jagers
6 reserve battalions
9 landwehr battalions
1/2 battalion of pioneers
8 batteries of artillery
2 dragoon regiments
2 hussar regiments
2 landwehr cavalry regiments

note: no guards, no cuirassiers, but bragging rights when you win

Hello, Vstaogames:

Curious: In what part of the US do you live?

What number of figures do you use for these units?
Years ago Fred Vietmeyer of the Fort Wayne, Ind area developed a 1:20 system for Napoleonics. Using his proportions if I remember correctly:

6 line battalions would be two regiments of 2 musketeer battalions of 32 figures and one fusilier battalion of 24. There was a grenadier company of 8 figures for each musketeer battalion, so a line brigade would have been one grenadier battalion of 32; 4 musketeer battalions of 32 each; 2 fusilier battalions of 24 each. Add a schutzen battalion of perhaps 24, and you'd have 8 battalions of "line."

Reserve units had two musketeer battalions and 1 fusilier as I recall, in the same numbers.

I don't recall how the landwehr was organized. You note 9 battalions. Is that 3 regiments of 3 battalions each?

8 batteries of guns seem to much. How would you represent these?

How big would a cavalry regiment be?

Garde de Paris (Texas, y'all!)

Reserve regiments usually had three battlaions, though some had four (an extra musketeer battalion) and no grenadiers.

Landwehr regiments had two, three, or four battalions, all musketeers.

And there is no historical precedent for fuilier battalions being smaller than musketeers. They had almost identical TO's, except for the musicians. There were long arguments between Fred Vietmeyer and Ray Johnson in the old Wargamer's newsletter about this. Turned out Fred had gotten ahold of the 1806 organization and was applying it to 1814-15.

Prussian cavalry regiments had 4 squadrons, each with 150 men at full strength. Since Fred had everything at about 80% strength this would yield 24 figure regiments.

New York City. My army is 15mm, almost all AB. Here's my roster, 12 per battalion, 8 per cavalry regiment, 2 guns per battery – I only have 6 batteries, not 8. That was wishful thinking. Landwehr infantry someyimes had 4 battalions, mine don't. Hope the format works.

10 officers (including Blucher)

Jager battalion 12 figures 4 stands

7th (2nd West Prussian) Infantry Regiment 12 stands
1 battalion Fusiliers 12 figures
2 battalions Musketeers 24 figures

25th (Lutzow Friekorps) Infantry Regiment 12 stands
1 battalion Fusiliers 12 figures
2 battalions Musketeers 24 figures

4th Reserve Regiment (British uniforms)
( later 16th (3rd Westphalian) IR) 12 stands
1 battalion Fusiliers 12 figures
2 battalions Musketeers 24 figures

Reserve Regiment (ersatz uniforms)
(later 21st (4th Pommeranian) IR) 12 stands
1 battalion Fusiliers 12 figures
2 battalions Musketeers 24 figures

Silesian Landwehr Regiment
(yellow facings, blue flags) 12 stands
3 battalions 36 figures

West Prussian Landwehr Regiment
(red facings, black/white flags) 12 stands
3 battalions 36 figures

Pomeranian Landwehr Regiment
(white facings, various flags) 12 stands
3 battalions 36 figures

Pioneers 8 figures 4 stands

Artillery 12 stands
8 stands 6pdr guns 32 gunners, 8 guns
2 stands 12pdr guns 8 gunners, 2 guns
2 stands howitzers 8 gunners, 2 guns

Cavalry
2 Regiments Landwehr cavalry 16 figures 8 stands
2 regiments Dragoons 16 figures 8 stands
2nd Lieb Hussar Regiment (black) 8 figures 4 stands
3rd Brandenburg Hussar Regiment (blue)
8 figures 4 stands

Totals
272 infantry 110 stands
48 gunners, 12 guns 12 stands
48 cavalry 24 stands
10 officers

Slightly different, I think, based on the orbats and strengths given by Haythornthwaite for the Ligny/Wavre/Waterloo:

13th Bde: Genlt von Hacke

1st Silesian Infantry Regt (Nr 10)= 2 Mtd Figures
2 Bns Msktr = 80 figs + 2 Mtd Offrs
1 Bn Fus = 40 figs + 1 Mtd Offr
2nd Neumark LW = 2 Mtd Figures
3 Bns Msktr = 120 figs + 3 Mtd Offrs
3rd Neumark LW (ditto)
3 Bns Msktr = 120 figs (dito)
Cavalry Brigade of Gen von Sydow = 2 Mtd Figures
1st Uhlans = 20 figs (3 x 6 + CO & Tptr)
1st Silesian LW Cavalry = 20 figs (ditto)
2nd Silesian LW Cavalry = 20 figs (ditto)
Horse Arty 6 Pdr Bty Nr 1 (4 guns, 12 Gunners, 1 Mtd Offr)
Fd Arty 6 pdr Btys Nrs 2, 11 (8 Guns, 24 Gunners, 2 Mtd Offrs)
Fd Arty 12 pdr Bty Nr 3 (4 guns, 16 Gunners, 1 Mtd Offr)

The orbat is not strictly accurate, I substituted 1st Uhlans for 1st Silesian LW Cav because I wanted one regular cavalry regiment, and I realise that my infantry units are at full strength. BTW it is my understanding that the majority of Prussian cavalry units only fielded 3 Sqns in 1815. If anybody has info to the contrary – specifically for the units listed – I shall be grateful.

B

According to this site:
link

some Prussian cavalry regiments in Blucher's army had 3 squadrons and some 4, and 1 had 6!

The 1815 OB is very non-standard, especially for the cavalry. The army had been stood down at the end of the 1814 campaign and had started a nearly total reorganization. It had to be re-mobilized quickly when Napoleon returned. IIRC, the missing squadrons from 1.Brigade of the I Corps Cavalry Reserve are serving detached with the other Prussian field force. Most of the rest of the three squadron outfits are either Landwehr (as is the six-squadron regiment) or are new regular (ex-freikorps, ex-freiwillige, or ex-National) regiments who haven't got themselves up to full strength yet.

You left out Templars.

I'll start with the basic formula already presented (50% foot, 25% cav. and 25% art.) and then try to build into a historical formation. And since what I know about the Prussians I could write on the head of a pin, with a crayon, I'll stick with something I know. French.

So with 25 battalions you get 12 + 6 + 6 + 1 joker (I'll leave him for last.)

My own rule of thumb for infantry is 1 light for every 4 line. That gives me 8 line and 2 light plus the two left over; give one each to the line and lights. I like 3 battalion regiments, so I'll take three line regiments and one light regiment. (I like regiments because that's what the dispatches mentioned and what a lot of histories were written of. Terrible 57th and all that.)

Since I'm making battalions into regiments now, then for cavalry the ‘division' (little ‘d', two sqns equal one div.) is a battalion equivalent, and two ‘divisions' or four sqns equal a small french regiment of cavalry. That gives me three regiments. So now I want two light cavalry regiments and one heavy regiment.

Artillery is easy. 6 batteries. Four 8* batteries, three foot and one horse, and two 12* batteries. The horse 8* battery goes with the cavalry, the three other 8* ers go with the infantry Regiments, and the 12*ers are the reserve.

Now for the joker. I absolutely adore the Guard Horse Grenadiers. But … based on my previous experiences, they would be the first to die, and ignominiously at that. I have terrible luck with high quality cavalry. So something else. Since it's 1815, one unit I know did very well at Waterloo was Jaquinot's Lancers. Those pig stickers were very effective. So, Chevau Lanciers will be the last unit.

I end up with:
3 ligne regiments (9 bns)
1 legere regiment (3 bns)
2 light cavalry regiments (8 sqns)
1 heavy cavalry regiment (4 sqns)
1 light cavalry lancer regiment (4sqns)
3 8* foot artillery batteries
1 8* horse artillery battery
2 12* foot artillery batteries

Now the heavy cavalry and heavy artillery would normally have been kept in the Cavalry Reserve and Artillery Reserve with the boss, but, suspending disbelief for a while, they are attached ad hoc to this force.

Looking for a historical force, I'll pull out my Digby and check 1815. The tricky part will be the Lancers, I'm betting. Looks like you can use either 8th Division at Ligny with the 1st Cavalry Corps attached:
8th Division: 15th Legere, 23rd, 37th and 64th Ligne (11 bns) ( missing one bn from our formula) 5 AB
1st Cavalry Corps: 4th Cavalry: 4th and 5th Hussars and 5th Cavalry: 1st Chevau Leger Lanciers (12 sqns) with 2 HAB
I'm only missing the heavy cavalry regiment and one inf bn. from the historical OB, and have an extra HAB … guess it depends on how authentic you want to get.
or the 6th Division at Quatre Bras with the 2nd Light Cavalry Division from the same Corps (II).
6th Division: 1st Legere, 1st, 2nd and 3rd Ligne (11bns) (missing one bn from our formula) 5 AB
2nd Light Cavalry Division: 1st and 2nd Chasseur a Cheval and 5th and 6th Lanciers (15 sqns) (missing one sqn) 1HAB
We're missing one bn of infantry and one sqn of cavalry, but got a second lancer unit for the heavy cav unit.

For officers, I'd get one for every two regiments (ie per Brigade), one per Division, one per Corps and one overall commander.

How bout them apples? Or rather "pommes"! <grin>

In 1815 Napoleon had 6-pdrs, not 8-pdrs.

Donlowry:

Thanks for that link – very useful!

rmaker:

Any links/sources that you can share, please?

OOOps!! In my post ^ delete "Gen von Sydow", insert "Obstlt von Watzdorf". That'll teach me to write up my notes properly!

And I have my first Stifle. Only on the Nappie boards: I am sure it was my facile quip offered above, on my first day back.

Hmm, I can be pretty flip at times, and yet I don't think I have ever been stifled. Guess I'll have to keep trying.

According to another site I saw, which I can't seem to find again, several of the Prussian LW cav. regiments were split up and attached, 2 squadrons each, to various infantry brigades. (One entire hussar regiment to the 1st Brigade.)

donlowry, if you can find a copy of Hofschroer's book on the battle of Ligny and QB, their are very detailed orbats within. Some landwehr cavalry regiments were distributed to various brigades, at least at Ligny. I assume to provide some scouting and screening since Napoleon's whereabouts and line of attack were not known at the time….