"Polish Artillery" Topic

A question I'm trying to resolve is what colour were the gun carriages and metal fittings for the G Duchy of Warsaw?

Did they follow the Saxon colour scheme of natural wood with yellow painted fittings or did they follow the French scheme of olive green with black fittings.

I suspect that as the French probably supplied most of the equipment it is highly likely that the French colour scheme was used.

Osprey and Nafziger are both silent on the point. The website napoleonistkya.atspace.com shows some re-enactors with a small gun in the French colour scheme.

This might be a point decided on the balance of probability but does anyone have any thoughts?

DHutpol

Polish guns were either Prussian or, to a lesser extent, Austrian. It seems unlikley that they were equipped with French material. I suspect that the Prussian guns were left in their original colours and not repainted. Certainly some Polish regiments that marched into Russia in 1812 had a couple of Austrian 3lb guns attached, these are also likley to have been left in their original colours.

K

K,

While Nafziger suggests the the Polish artillery was captured Austrian or Prussian equipment, I suspect that might have been true in 1809 or even 1812 but by 1813 after the losses in Russia they may well have been using French guns. As far as the color scheme, even if they were Prussian or Austrian guns why wouldn't they have repainted them to conform to the French colors?

db

oldnorthstate

I asked Kevin about this ages ago. He could only come up with one state that was definitely re-equipped with French guns and that was Denmark. By 1813 the French are woefully short of ordnance themselves, bringing 8lb guns out of retirement to replace AnIX guns lost in Russia. Meanwhile countries like Poland probably had large numbers of Prussian or similar 6lb guns, think of all the fortresses and depots that had been in Prussia that went to Poland, probably with everything in them. We know the Prussians were short of guns in 1813 (hence the british deliveries) so the balance must have gone somewhere. I suspect Polands problem was not guns but experienced or trained gunners.

As for re-painting, well, why bother? It costs money and takes time. Personally I am happy using my Prussian 6lb's from 1806 to equip my later poles. There may have been some French 4lb guns taken by Legions formerly in French service but in 1813 I am still pretty certain that Prussian pattern orndance was the norm

K

K & DB

Thanks very much for your comments. I shall opt for Prussian guns 'surplus' to requirements after 1806.

Dhautpol

There were French pieces as part of the old Warsaw Legion, seven guns issued in January 1807 to form a foot battery (6 battery and one spare?) I would have thought these were 4lb guns.

The Posen Legion had a battery of 6 guns but these were sent over from Warsaw, so I suspect these may have been French as well. Another was around but did not take the field immediately.

The Kalisz Legion supposedly raised 3 artillery companies, but I cannot make out what guns they were equipped with early on.

There is reference to two Polish batteries at Friedland under Dombrowski (Posen Legion), under Gugenmus and Kobylanski.

My expectation is that if any French pieces were issued they were 4lb guns doled out at this time. After 1807 when there was time to take stock of assets I would again guess that the 4lb guns were replaced by more effective Prussian 6lb guns with appropriate limbers and caissons.

K

The danish artillery was their own produce and in their own colours. I wonder where he got that strange idea from?
Since the danish army never went into campaigns that they lost they didnt loose their guns.

A return dated 28 Mars 1807 for the force that started as the Kalisch Legion (with some Warsaw Legion and Posen Legion units), although it later became the 2nd Polish Legion, yet was listed as the "Corps d'observation Polnais commandé par le général de dvision Zayaczek" (Józef Zajączek) shows that the Polish artillery company had:
4 pičces de six
2 pičces de quatre

When ordering the formation of the Polish artillery company for division under Dombrowski (Jan Henryk Dąbrowski)which started out as the Legion du Nord and Posen Legion and later became the 3rd Polish Legion, Napoleon ordered the artillery company to have six cannon (Napoleon Order dated Warsaw, 2 January 1807).

The Warsaw Legion later became the 1st Polish Legion under Poniatowski. No count of pieces, although the artillery contingent seems to have included the defences of Warsaw, including Praga across the Vistula.

The comment on the Danes being issued French artillery is in Swords Around A Throne, page 263. Apparently, some of the Danish artillery was obsolete, being too light in caliber to be of much use.

Regarding the Poles, there is an excellent book in Polish, with a French and English summary included (as well as being very well illustrated), that states that most of the Polish artillery companies were equipped with captured Prussian and Austrian guns and vehicles, though some units were equipped with French guns and material. The book also states that some of the Prussian guns were rebored so that French ammunition could be used.

As to painting or repainting, the English summary says nothing. I would think that the guns and vehicles would be repainted because in the distance if they were not they would or could appear to be enemy artillery batteries. That, however, is only supposition on my part.

The book is entitled Wojsko Ksiestwa Warszawskiego and it is by Ryszard Morawski and Andrzej Nieuwazny. It covers the Duchy of Warsaw's artillery, engineers, and sappers and is a very valuable addition to the literature of the period.

Sincerely,
Kevin

Wojsko Ksiestwa Warszawskiego. Artyleria, Inzynierowie, Saperzy. (Army of the Grand Duchy of Warsaw. Artillery, Engineers, Pioneers) by Ryszard Morawski(color plates); Andrzej Nieuwazny (text). 224pp, 50 detailed full page color plates. 2004.

picture

This is the 3rd volume of the series Wojsko Ksiestwa Warszawskiego. The two previous volumes covered Kawaleria (vol 1 – 1992), and Generalicja i sztaby (vol 2 – 1996). A similar volume,

Wojsko Polskie w sluzbie Napoleona – Legia Nadwislanska, Lansjerzy Nadwislańnscy by S. Lesniewski, with illustrations by R. Morawski

should be out this year.

It is unknown when or if the remaining infantry album will be issued [Do zamkniecia serii pozostałlo wydanie dwóch albumów poswieconych pulkom jazdy i piechoty.]

The Kremlin collection in 1911 contained seven ‘Polish' gun tubes, of which the following five were in the original inventory of guns taken by the Russians in 1812:

1 6 lber:

A Russian 6 lber marked in Polish, "Taken at Vilna 15 August 1794."

4 3 lbers:

1 cast at Warsaw by Johann Zacharias Neuberg [Neubert?] in 1766. Weight 1236.4 kg.

1 cast by Johann Ehrenfeld.

1 cast by [Johann] Dietrich at Warsaw in 1780. Weight 1201.2 kg.

1 cast in 1791.

Corrected weights of gun tubes shown!

1 cast at Warsaw by Johann Zacharias Neuberg [Neubert?] in 1766. Weight 255.5 kg.

1 cast by [Johann] Dietrich at Warsaw in 1780. Weight 248.2 kg.

Interestingly, the book referenced specifically mentioned that the Poles had no foundries in the Duchy in 1807 and after, so that would mean that whatever gun casting capability they had before was either taken by the three states that partitioned Poland or it was not in the provinces that became the Duchy in 1807-1808.

Dietrich, Johannes Ehrenfried, 1739 (Drezno) – 1814 (Warsaw). There are eight guns, cast in Warsaw – with casting dates of 1786, 1789, 1790 and 1791, by Dietrich presently in the Army Museum, Warsaw. He is buried in the Cmentarz Ewangelicko-Augsburski, Warsaw. [Jan Ehrenfried Dietrich]

Neubert [correct spelling], Johann Zacharias. There is a cohorn mortar cast by him, in Warsaw, in 1773 presently in the Army Museum, Warsaw.

Norbert was a clock maker, but I do not know about Dietrich. I will check this coming week the Polish National Biography volumes for more information.

I note that the V Corps 3 lbers were quite active in 1812 at Schevardino and Mozhaisk, expending a total of 1037 ball and 326 canister rounds.

A three pounder cast by Dietrich in 1791. Polish Construction of 3.v.1791; bore – 7.5 cm.; length, muzzle face to rear of base ring – 122.5 cm; marked weight 375.5 funt – 152.6 kg.:

link

Bibliography of materials searched:

Gorski, Konstanty, 1826-1898. Historia artyleryi polskiej. Warsaw: 1902. Note: Reprinted several times in past 25 years.

Stefanska, Zofia and Marii Rohozinska. Muzeum Wojska Polskiego. Katalog zbiorów – wiek XVIII. Warsaw: Wyd. Ministerstwa Obrony Narodowej, 1960. s. 213, tablic ilustr. po tekscie 36; 24 cm. Series: Muzeum Wojska Polskiego.

Nieuwazny, Andrzej. Wojsko Ksiestwa Warszawskiego. Artyleria, Inzynierowie, Saperzy. 224p, 50 detailed full page color plates by Ryszard Morawski. Warsaw: Pelta, 2004.

Kennard, A. N. (Arthur Norris), 1911-1995. Gunfounding and gunfounders: a directory of cannon founders from earliest times to 1850 / A. N. Kennard. London; New York: Arms and Armour Press; New York, N.Y.: Distributed in the USA by Sterling Pub. Co., 1986. 176 p., [4] p. of plates : ill. ; 26 cm.

That's nice. I merely stated in the reference that I had posted that it was mentioned that the Poles in 1807 had no foundry capability. I thought it interesting.

Perhaps the Russians were up to their normal way of doing business in taking that capability eastward when they took over their section of Poland during the partition.

They did it after War II, so they might have done it earlier.

Are there any records of artillery pieces cast in Poland from 1807-1812? If not, then perhaps the authors are correct. I have no idea whether or not they are, but it was an interesting point that they brought up.

Sincerely,
Kevin

OK.

From the information I have provided, Polish canon casting took place in Warsaw since the mid-1760s, at the latest, through 1791, at the least. Russia invaded Poland in 1792. Warsaw remained part of Poland at the 2nd partition (1793). At the 3rd partition (1795), Warsaw went to Prussia. I have not yet found any indication of canon casting at other Polish locations during this period.

It should be noted that the 3.v.1791 Polish Constitution made major reforms to the Polish Army.

2nd partition – 23.i.1793:

link

3rd partition – 24.x.1795:

The Russian part included 120,000 km˛ and 1.2 million people with Wilno, the Prussian part 55,000 km˛ and 1 million people with Warsaw, and the Austrian 47,000km˛ with 1.2 million and Lublin and Kraków.

The Polish Crown Archives were taken by Russia, the major occupying power, in 1794 (only returning to Poland after The Treaty of Riga (1923)).

link

With the formation of the Grand Duchy, Warsaw was again a part of Poland.

The Grand Duchy 9.vi.1809:

picture

Foreign canon are listed in

Brandenburg, N. E. (Nikolai Efimovich), 1839-1903. Istoricheskii katalog S. Peterburgskago artilleriiskago muzeia / sostavil N. E. Brandenburg. 3 vols. S.-Peterburg: IU. A. Bokram, 1877-. 24 cm.

I will check the third volume of this work to see if any post 1791 Polish canon are listed. As previously stated, I will check the Polish National Biography volumes to see if there is any information regarding the end of casting at Warsaw and the occupation of Dietrich. I will check Mertens to see if the partition treaties mention the foundry in Warsaw.

Of possible interest to our legion of readers:

The Second Partition of Poland: A Study in Diplomatic History by Robert Howard Lord. 1915. 586 pages:

link