""Skirmish" Rules with most Historical Weapons Feel" Topic

Gang,
I am not a medieval weapons expert, and am wondering which set of "Skirmish" rules gives the best feel for the actual weapons portrayed in the rules.

In other words, are heavy 2-handed weapons better against armored opponants but disadvantaged against a numble opponant, do polearms have better reach but perhaps are a bit clumsy in 1-1 combat, etc. That sort of thing.

"Skirmish" is in quotes b/c I'm willing to consider the combat system of an RPG, especially if it has a streamlined combat system for battles (Think Columbia's "Battlelust" which is derived from the Harn RPG system, or "Melee/Wizard" were the basis for GURPS).

That being said, I've no problem if you vote for a simpler combat game than an RPG system, just explain why. Perhaps you think GW's LOTR is just fine for what it is, or Pig Wars, Cry Havoc, etc are accurate for what they try to portray.

I'm mainly interested in the interplay of weapons/armor/movement in a low-level skirmish setting.

Thanks for your well-informed thoughts in advance.
Cheers,
'Erb

We use a simple chart that came from the original "Chainmail" rules:

link

We tweak it from time to time or based on the particualar period. You can see that it does take into account some weapons are better against certain opponents.

I have no real comments on how accurate it is, I have not had an opportunity to try these weapons out myself :)

I always thought the Runequest combat system was rather good – giving players a chance to parry blows, and armour reducing the effect of hits etc. Bit of a change from the D&D model…

The Steve Jackson game Melee which together with the game Wizard grew into the GURPS roleplaying system is a really good skirmish game. Perhaps over detailed but it really worked.

Cry Havoc also springs to mind as a medieval skirmish game but I can't remember much about it.

As to straight miniatures skirmish I can't suggest any because I haven't played a traditional miniatures skirmish game for decades.

Cry Havoc was fairly simple system, but good I think.
I never liked Runequest because of its complexity. You role to hit, they role to parry, you role a hit location….lots of rolling… then there is the problem of the hit location charts…what happens if the target is prone? etc.

Mordheim and also Warrior Heroes Armies & Adventures

There is the excellent Age of Blood (2nd ed):

link

If you like Dark Age Skirmish.

I keep wanting to write a set of rules like that, but haven't gotten round to it.

Look at Runequest, Riddle of Steel, LOTR (much to my surprise). Haven't played Battlelust but I have looked over the Harn combat system and was tempted to pick it up.
We dug Melee out of the closet a while back and were pleasantly surprised how well it has held up over the years compared to newer games.

That said, I'm currently enthralled with Song Of Blades and Heroes, which doesn't meet your requirements as such but is simply a heck of a lot of fun.

cry havoc, as long as I remember, was extremely simple. Riddle of steel is a rpg with a lot or realism. YOu should simplify the wounds table, if you use more than ten minis per side

I love the Battlelust system. I also like the system in Skjaldborg,and Ice's Bladestorm rules. All of them seem innovative yet fairly straightforward.

just my two coins.
Cheers.
GeorgeD

Take a look at "Legends of the Ancient World" by Dark City Games:

PDF link

A nice compact system similar to Melee/Wizard. They take into account the differences between armor and weapon types but play pretty fast. The rules are free to boot!

I must say that if you're willing to go a bit more abstract Song of Blades gives a very fun game.

Paul

Thanks for the replies. I'm trying more to get at what respects the historical usage of weapons and not so much how much we like the game.

I'm not much of an expert on weapons, I just know they were all made for a reason to fight against specific opponants and not just due to the whims of the weapons manufacturing companies.
:)
I'm wondering what feels right when you play it.

Oh, I guess I should say that my vote thus far would be for "Melee" and "Wizard", but it could just be an old geezer waxing nostalgic! At the moment, I'm uncertain where the darn games are…

The point with "historical" weapon usage is that it all depends on the situation… pikes were devastating only when employed "en masse", for example. And to all those who think that double-handed sword was clumsy and slow weapon – I suggest you find some ARMA videos on the net… Skilled greatswordsman will not let you even close to him, and each swing can cut the head clean from the shoulders, however he loses this advantage once close to his opponent (but is not defenseless – see the opening battle in "Flesh and blood" for example :) ). The most versatile weapon seems to be the sword, but then again – imagine you have the sword, your opponent has the dagger. And you are sitting next to each other in a crowded tavern when the fight starts… Even simple spear can beat the sword, or greatsword, if someone knows how/when to use it.

It all boils down to the skill of the warrior. Of course, some weapons can be more effective against armour (even then you have different kinds of armour, so bear that in mind! chainmail has different qualities than haqueton, boiled leather is different than plate etc.). So I'd say that the most "historical" system will base the melee outcome on the warrior's skill, the weapon being secondary.

My experience of Western Martial Arts and historical reenactment would definitely bear out Matheo's post. A bill-block is pretty daunting for a small group of swordsmen, but one-on-one as soon as you're past his point the billman has had it! :)

Montjoie or for duels a modified Red Sand, Blue Sky from Two Hour Wargames.

"Skilled greatswordsman will not let you even close to him"

You could always throw a rock.

The game might be called Battlelust? but it was a Harn derivative that atleast locally some gamers raved about. I bever got the chance to play it but it sounded prettty solid.

Having played the bulk of the above-mentioned games, I must say that Battlelust feels the most authentic. It compares point, edge and blunt trauma damages for weapons to point, edge and blunt protection from armor or layered armor. A defensive stance can turn into an offensive advantage by achieving a tactical advantage. It bogs down with 20+ combatants. Be aware that with this detail comes a rather rather slow and methodical game. It is great fun however and has a very good "Historical" feel. Just don't expect to bang a game out in a few minutes.

For smoking fast/unpredictable mayhem that unfolds before you like a great movie my choice would be Montjoie.

Montjoie has been mentioned. Is it just fast, or does it have great feel for the weapons AND is fast?

Personally, I've never heard of it at all!

Cheers,
'Erb

Erbprinz,
Montjoie, does not take into account weapon initiative speeds or ranks. Hand held weapons are pretty much all the same, so to answer you question NO it does not have great feel for the weapons.

What Montjoie does have AND what the next offering from 2HWG does have, is an amazing system for generating "cascading" reactions. As an example. I order my knights to hold until charged. You orderyour Archers to fire at my knights. My knights "Test" to determine what the do. They break my order and charge your Archers. Your archers soil their britches and flee. My charging Knights come into sight of your Knights. Your knights test for a reaction and the test result is that they MUST charge my Mounted. Your Mounted race across the field and come into sight of my Men at Arms. Then my Men at Arms must test for reaction……………If you like a very controlled game where you have the freedom of doing illogical things like sending "Soft mushy meat targets" such as unarmored archers against mounted Cav., it might not be for you. But if you like great movies, good novels and don't mind relinquishing a bit of control…I think it is great.

Ijumpajav – I wasn't going to bother with Montjoie, but if it plays anything like that lively cinematic description then I should give it a shot!

Is the 'next offering from 2HWG' also medieval?

Is the 'next offering from 2HWG' also medieval?

It's Warrior Heroes – Armies and Adventures. It's a fantasy set of rules but can be used as is for medievals quite easily.
It builds off of Montjoie but incorporates many more weapon types and armor types so may have the detail that the original poster was looking for.
I'll be posting Bat Reps and even a tutorial on how it works before the game is released (June)

link

Whatever rules you use must allow for weapon differences and have individually based miniatures, or it isn't skirmish.

""Whatever rules you use must allow for weapon differences and have individually based miniatures, or it isn't skirmish.""

That's sort of my point. I'm leaning towards "Melee/Wizard/GURPS" as best. PRoblem is I can't find my copy of Melee.

Does anyone know how to PM people on this system?? It seems people do it, but I can't figure it out.

Only supporting and sponsoring members of TMP can PM each other.