"Chaco war information?" Topic

Hello, I am looking for as much information as I can get on the uniforms and military equipment of the infantry used by the Paraguayans and Bolivians in the Chaco War -- cut of uniform, webgear, type of smallarms, etc.

Also very helpful to know what equipment and organization the squads, platoons and companies used. Thanks -- pictures or illustrations will really help too.

Conduct of the war, aspects of the air war and so on not so important -- no need to discuss that.

All the best,
khurasanminiatures.tripod.com

Khurasan Miniatures, if you're gonna do what I think you're gonna do once you get this information, then bless you, sir!

From what I remember of some pictures that I saved on my old hard drive (before it crashed), the Bolivian Army was uniformed very much like the Spanish Civil War Assault Guards, and I believe their uniforms were a khaki olive color. As for the Paraguayans, I also had some neat images on my crashed drive. In the meantime, I did find these:

picture
picture
picture
picture
picture
picture

Not a particularly striking uniform, except for their curious-looking soft hat.

I do have to ask, 15mm or 25-28mm?

I just found these images of Bolivian soldiers during the war:

link
picture

The last image is of General Hans Kundt, a German officer who helped train the Bolivian Army.

If I can find more, I'll post it here.

Checkout "Miniature Wargames" magazine issue #13. It contains an excellent article by Bob Cordery, and includes line drawings that should be just what you need.
I'm pretty sure that there were also some articles on the Chaco War in "The Nugget" (the magazine of Wargame Developments), in "Military Modelling" and in "The Journal" (mag of the Society of Twentieth Century Wargamers").
However, the MW article quoted above is a good place to start.

Cheers,

Geoff.

PS/ the answer is "Yes".
That is if the question is "Would you buy figues for this war in 15mm scale?"

The old "Command" Magazine did a large article and accompanying board game on the Chaco War.

Speaking for me : ) I will buy these chaco war figures if they come out in 20mm .

"I do have to ask, 15mm or 25-28mm?"

Why sir, whatever are you referring to?

Thanks for the pictures -- looks a bit like the War of the Milkmen versus the Japanese Tourists! But there's actually rather a charm to that.

Geoff, your reference to the MW issue is very helpful. Thanks for that. Will get on it.

Has anyone made up army lists or similar for FoW for the Chaco War? It's so close to WWII it's virtually part of it.

Just askin', don't read anything into this.

All the best,
khurasanminiatures.tripod.com

Hans Kundt not only trained the Bolivians, he led them to defeat against Felix Estigaribbia (sp?) as I recall.

You want a simple modern battle? Rifles, machine guns, mortars with the odd artillery support, occasional scout plane and truly rare Bolivian tank…

The usual objective is a well. You hold it, you win.

I believe Mark Bevis has some lists in his "MicroMark" army lists etc…

Cheers,

Geoff.

There is some information about the equipment of the Paraguayan and Bolivian armies in Adrian English's book 'The Armed Forces of Latin America' published by Brassey's.

Adrian English has also written a book about the history of the Chaco War, which either came out very recently, or is just about to be published. I haven't seen a copy yet but given the author it should be good. It is called the 'Green Hell War', I think…

There was an article by C.A. Norman about Chaco uniforms in El Dorado Magazine, which is still available via Magweb.

Finally, there is also some good discussion and photos of Chaco War weapons in one of the threads in the Axis History forum's 'Interwar' message board.

More information is available in Spanish, both on the Internet, and in books, but some of the latter are quite obscure.

I think this is a hard to research subject unless you are in Bolivia or Paraguay. Even going through plenty of Bolivian and Paraguayan material and asking Bolivians and Paraguayans with interest in the period I found it relatively hard to find specific information on uniforms beyond what you can see in photos, and good info. on all the types of weapons used, especially by the Bolivians.

Two books I found very useful on these subjects were: Dr. Angel Rios 'La Defensa del Chaco', Ayacucho, Buenos Aires 1957 (for Paraguayan weapons and their performance) and Col. Enrique Vidaurre 'El Material de Guerra en la Campana del Chaco' La Paz, 1940. The latter book has photos and technical and tactical data on the most common weapons. Good things on these subjects were also written in the Argentinian 'Revista de Informaciones Militares', probably in other Latin American Nation's military presses too.

Other interesting aspects of the fighting in the Chaco War, besides those already mentioned, are the bizarre and awful terrain (simultaneous existence of Jungle and Desert conditions, and then some mountains at the end) and the importance of field fortifications in the conflict.

Thanks Coconuts, and thanks elliesdad for your help as well.

Some specific questions:

1) What sort of heavy MG did the Paraguayans use, if any? I know what their LMG was -- were they one per squad, or were they provided at a higher level?

2) What sort of HMG did the Bolivians use? Did they have LMGs as well and if so, what sort? Was this all Vickers equipment?

3) Seems both sides had Mauser 98s -- did either or both sides traditionally fight with bayonets fixed or did they even have bayonets at all?

4) Paraguayans are usually depicted with a bedroll -- how did the Bolivians carry their gear around?

5) Bolivian reservists had winchester rifles -- what type?

Thanks for any help -- the histories don't usually get into these details and I don't have access to, or the ability to read, the spanish language sources. I do have the Green Hell book on order but it's not out til October!

Information on the Chaco War is not the easiest thing to find. El Dorado on MagWeb.com is one source. Another is The Chaco War by Bruce Farcau. Pricier, but I have a copy in my shop.

Details:

1-52500 Farcau, Bruce W. CHACO WAR, THE: Bolivia & Paraguay 1932-1935 Narrative account of this little known conflict, details major battles, chpt. notes, biblio, index.1 vol, 254 pgs 1996 WESTPORT, PRAGER PRESS NEW-hardcover … $100.00 USD

Dennis from OMM
onmilitarymatters.com

Argh! I didn't know he wrote one on the Chaco war. His book on the Great Pacific War (1879-1884) is excellent. A hundred bucks? Oh my…

Khurasan,

I will try and answer some of your questions…:

1) Paraguay used mainly Colt MMG. They had some other types such as old Maxims, but the Colt was the main one. They captured plenty of Vickers guns from the Bolivians and sometimes you read in various sources that these were used against their former owners, but Dr. Rios says in his book that this was actually very rare.

At the start of the war each Paraguayan squad had an lmg because the Paraguayans had bought enough modern weapons to fully equip the whole of the troops they initially mobilised in 1932. I don't have my sources to hand at the moment for exact data on Paraguayan infantry organisation, but if you remain interested I will try and find the various pieces of info I have.

As a rule, as the war went on, Paraguayan units got smaller and the number of lmgs and smgs per squad increased.

Another important weapon for the Paraguayan infantry was the Stokes/Brandt 81mm mortar.

2)The main Bolivian MMG was the Vickers, as used by the British Army at the same time. Like the Paraguayans they had other weapons too, though, as I have said, I don't have such complete and comprehensive info. on all types of Bolivian equipment. I have read that they had maxims (probably old) and some Colt at least, besides the Vickers.
Late in the war, Brno lmgs were mounted on sustained fire tripods also.

For lmgs, the Bolivians had mainly Vickers Berthier and various types of Brno, similar to the British Bren gun. They also seem to have had a few Madsens. The Bolivians used Erma/Volmer and other types of smgs, similar to those used by the Paraguayans.

I think most modern Bolivian equipment was Vickers or purchased through Vickers, but later they tried to buy wherever they could…

3) I have never seen fitted bayonets, but conditions in the Chaco made them quite unsuitable. The troops all seemed to have carried knives of various kinds (like machetes etc.) and used these and grenades in hand to hand fighting in the jungle/forest.

4) Many photos of Bolivian troops I have seen also show them with blanket roles, like the Paraguayans. Others seemed to have carried canvas bags and usually (important in the Chaco) water canteens. Sometimes different sorts of canvas webbing, and sometimes leather can be seen in photos. The canvas webbing looks a bit like British WW1 type, but I am not an expert on these things…

5) I haven't read about this, but it's possible! Second line Paraguayan units carried a wide variety of old types of rifle.

Hope this is helpful to you.

Coconuts, thanks, that's very helpful. The info on squad organization would also be extremely helpful.

Did these armies actually use SMGs? I didn't know that! Do you know what types and who used what?

BTW, which Colt MMG are we talking about here? I wonder if in 15mm one can get away with just making one type of MMG type as the water cooled guns pretty much all have that same Maxim shape.

This is all very useful info -- though I have noticed that answers sometimes raise new questions!

Khurasan,

I am pleased you found the info. useful. I will try and answer your questions without going into information overkill…

The armies did use smgs; not so much at the start, but in increasing quantities as the war went on. It was found to be a very useful weapon in close quarter fighting, and more useful for conscript troops with relatively rudimentary training. The main type seems to have been an early version of the German Schmeisser (?), I forget the exact designation but will look it up.

The Colt MMG used by the Paraguayans was apparently the M38. It does look a bit like a later maxim or a Schwarzlose with the water jacket.

A problem with just making one type of MMG could be that the Vickers was by far the most common type in the Bolivian Army, but it looks rather different to the Colt, the most common type in the Paraguayan. The Colt could likely stand in for Maxims OK though. I was browsing Col. Vidaurre's book last night, and it appears that the Paraguayans also had some Hotchkiss MMG.

Another interesting type of Machine gun that appeared in the Bolivian Army was the Oerlikon 20mm cannon on a special stand. The Bolivian Army had a number of modern, slightly gimmicky weapons (e.g. flame throwers, 105 mortars etc.) that the Army seemed eager to buy to try and offset their numerical inferiority early in the war.

Finally, I read that the Bolivians at least increasing started to use short versions of the Mauser, because they found them more handy in the difficult terrain.

Are you thinking of making some Chaco War figures? I have been interested in this war for a while, and I was thinking about trying to write a short guide to the Armies, weapons, tactics and battles (with good orders of battle etc.), but then, because there were really very few/no specific figures to game the war with I thought this guide would be relatively pointless. If some figures are appearing, however, it would probably have some use.

I forgot, I am going away for a few days, but will post the units organisation stuff when I come back.

From what I've read of the Gran Chaco War the Paraguayans used a number of Madsen light machine guns and Stokes-Brandt trench mortars, as they couldn't afford the heavier, sexier hardware used by their wealthier Bolivian opponents.

As it turned out, the terrain of the Gran Chao being what it is, the Paraguayans made the right decision…

Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net

Thanks again coconuts and BWP for yet more info. I wonder if the SMG was the Bergmann from WWI rather than the Schmeisser? I don't think the Schmeisser had even been developed yet. (?)

This is all coming together, but I have to admit I'm a bit underwhelmed by the amount of interest I'm seeing in this war. Two or three people have said they would buy. On top of that I suspect it may be a struggle to collect sources and even worse to put together orders of battle and special rules for the Chaco War for use with, say, FoW. This is not to denigrate your very helpful contributions, to the contrary it's impressive you've come to know so much. I am a bit more doubtful though than when I first enquired about the war ….

My father is from Paraguay so I have interest in seeing miniatures for the Chaco war BUT in 20mm :)
I want to check with my cousins there to get one or two books on the subject.

Hi, sorry but definitely not 20mm -- what I'd REALLY like to do is The War of the Triple Alliance, but there are no established rules for that period. FoW is widely used for WWII and Chaco is basically a strange precursor to that. FoW is 15mm.

If you get those books and any interesting info, though, let me know! Thanks.

Khurasan,

did you get the PM I sent you with the links to Chaco War websites?

Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net

P.S. perhaps down the road you could issue some 1/144 scale aircraft for the air war component of the Chaco War?

Yes, I did, thanks. I'd seen all but one already, but that one was helpful.

"but that one was helpful."

I have my uses…. Mwahahahaaaa!

Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net

Khurasan,

The book I have by Col. Vidaurre says that the Schmeisser mod. 28/11 was widely used by the Bolivians, and there are photos of it, so it looks like this smg was around during the war. Other types he lists are Bergmann 34/1, Erma Volmer and Steyer Solothurn 1-100, used by the Paraguayans.

I can understand why you may have some doubts about making a commercial Chaco War range. In the past I was thinking that the way a range was likely to appear was if someone had an interest, and made the figures just as a hobby, or a small addition to an already existing range.

I had never thought about using FoW for Chaco, so am not sure what adaptions would be necessary. Infantry and their relevant, usually fairly light, support weapons dominated
the war, so I think it would be important that a rule set had good coverage of these things, and of the special kind of terrain in the Chaco. Water supply was a very important aspect in quite a few of the battles.

If you remain interested in this war and wanted them, I could provide you with fairly detailed orders of battle for all the main campaigns, and some data on unit organisation.

Let me get back to you on that, Coconuts. Thanks.

Hi,

I play FOW and would be interested in 15mm Chaco war figures.

I have the military modeling issue and the Command magazine game.

Rich.

A war I know very little about, but those were really fascinating pictures, all of them, Saginaw.

What was that towed gun?
--
Tim

Khurasan,
I was going to post to this forum about the great new book I'd found. Then I saw your thread and decided this would be just the place to mention it. I heartily recommend that you pick up a copy of Adrian J. English's "The Green Hell." It is a nicely done military history of the Chaco War published last year by Spellmount Limited in the UK. At 224 pages, it is described as a "concise history." However, it is crammed full of the kind of details we wargammer love. There are numerous photos(around 80 by my count)depicting vehicles, weapons, aircraft and troops. The photo studies of individual Bolivian and Paraguayan infantrymen are particularly nice. There are also maps of the major battles and an extensive bibliography. The appendicies are just awesome, including the orders of battle for both armies, lists of major equipment, types of aircraft and even the ships of the Paraguayan Navy.

I ran across this interesting book by going to bookfinder.com and just typing "Chaco War" in the title search. This is a great way to look around and find new books you might not know are out there. You can also search by author. Bookfinder will show a list of related titles. Once you pick a title, it gives a brief description and shows availability both new and used from a variety of online book sellers.

The Green Hell is not currently available here in the U.S., but Bookfinder lets you shop worldwide. I got my copy thru AbeBooks.com from a UK bookseller. Despite the current exchange rate it was only $22.00 USD including airmail, a bargin price. The UK bookseller (whose name escapes me just now) provided excellent service and my copy arrived in less than a week.

BTW, I do hope you or someone else will eventually get around to doing a range of figures for this fascinating period. My preference would be 15mm in case your interested. Hope I was of some help,

Cowan