The Pied Piper | 05 May 2008 1:17 p.m. PST |
Just received a copy of the new WW2 game from Mongoose Publishing and what a rip-off! £19.50 GBP for a B&W book with poor quality pics printed on bog paper. It looks like it was printed by Lulu.com, a self-publishing web site that do print-on-demand and the books are very poor quality. Had the rules been a tenner inclusive of P&P, it would have been OK, but not at nearly £20.00 GBP. Plus you only get lists for 1944-45. Not a good offering from Mongoose IMHO. Sorry guys. |
Hastati | 05 May 2008 1:20 p.m. PST |
I looked at it at Salute, and quickly put it back down again. |
darthfozzywig | 05 May 2008 1:25 p.m. PST |
I *really* want to like Mongoose and their games, but everything they make turns out like a fan-made product with a big price tag. |
aka Mikefoster | 05 May 2008 2:25 p.m. PST |
That is disappointing to hear. BTW what is BOG paper? |
Alcibiades | 05 May 2008 2:27 p.m. PST |
After the printing fiasco with ACTA 2d and the Fleet Lists and Mongoose's subsequent decision to end production of the fleet models needed to play, it will be a long time before Mongoose sees another cent out of me. Bog paper = toilet paper Kent |
Phil Walling | 05 May 2008 2:30 p.m. PST |
Noooooooooooooooooooooooo, we've ordered a load of these
i put my faith in Mongoose one more time
and yet again its been misplaced it would appear. |
Martian Root Canal | 05 May 2008 3:15 p.m. PST |
Mongoose 6, Consumers 0
it's a shut-out. Prepaint decision on SST delays new releases, poor quality of printing for books, BFE minis discontinued, SST minis discontinued, B5 ACTA minis discontinued and now BFE:World at War. |
Major Mishap | 05 May 2008 3:17 p.m. PST |
Should have looked around before buying, mine cost under £15.00 GBP with free postage. Apart from the dubious quality, do the rules play good? If so then its not a waste of money, mind you, I to would have prefered a glossy colour ruleset for an extra £5.00 GBP Appearance is unfortunately the main criteria for a good set of rules nowdays. |
darthfozzywig | 05 May 2008 4:39 p.m. PST |
Hey Martian, don't forget the Conan RPG that was so poorly edited and developed that the "Atlantean" edition (another hardback) followed shortly: Mongoose 7, Consumers 0. Evidently a "second-second" edition is coming along soon, to boot. |
Ken Portner | 05 May 2008 5:03 p.m. PST |
Production values aside, the Battlefield Evolution rules are a good set. However, what I've been told is that these WAW rules are the exact same rules as the BF Evo modern, just with stats for WWII units. Nothing you couldn't easily do yourself. Save your money. |
SeattleGamer | 05 May 2008 9:00 p.m. PST |
I feel sorry for you Pete (and others). It's a pity you didn't come to TMP and check up on threads related to this before you made your purchases. Before I plunk down my money I always come here to see if anyone else has, and what the verdict was? I did NOT know about the poor paper, but after reading a few BFE WAW threads here, I did know: 1- Only lists for Normandy to Berlin (to be fair, they do mention this on their site). 2- Poor photos. The author of the rules posted just a few days ago that the beautifully painted figures by some well known and respected figure painters were lovingly photographed, and then turned to crap by Mongoose and printed as poor b&w. I believe the author has the color versions on his site (not that it helps). 3- Supposedly the rules are BFEvo (Modern) that have been tightened up, errors corrected, and then tweaked for WWII. Their concept is to have a "core" rule set, and the core never changes. Then, depending on the era/genre, they can add specific bundles that work with the core to become the genre you want. This first one is for WWII. Ironically, the next is for Modern. Yes, that's right, they are going to then release the BFEvo rules (which covered modern) as a reworked core, to cover
modern again. The author (I know that sounds formal, he posts here on TMP but I can't remember his moniker, starts with an "A") says he just submitted his Pacific Theater bundle to Mongoose, and they paid him. So he used that as an argument that Mongoose is serious about supporting the rules with more troops for other theaters. I'll believe it when Mongoose actually publish supporting add-ons for other theaters and armies. But $40 USD for "bog" paper and poor black & white photos just to get the core rules sounds pretty bad. |
CmdrKiley | 05 May 2008 10:23 p.m. PST |
Hmmm
.I wonder if the PDF will be in color? |
David Manley | 05 May 2008 11:09 p.m. PST |
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SeattleGamer | 05 May 2008 11:51 p.m. PST |
Agis
that's it! The thing about rules PDFs, I prefer them actually (quick electronic lookup of new terms and rules), but only when (1) the set isn't too big (prefer under 100 pages) and (2) limited color (usually just the cover). I actually print rules PDFs, but if the rulebook was full color with every page containing graphics, artwork, and photos (Legends of the Old West series, for example) there would be no point in buying the "cheaper" PDF because the cost to print out all that color would surpass buying it in color. I can't imagine Mongoos releasing a printed black & white version, and then a BETTER color version as a PDF. That would be silly. Most companies release the color version printed, and then (if it's not the exact same version) it's a printer-friendly PDF versions. Don't think I've ever heard of a company releasing a PDF version better than the printed. What would that do to sales? |
bobstro | 06 May 2008 4:32 a.m. PST |
For the record, I ordered the WWII Eastern Front Scenarios book announced on TMP from Lulu.com and am quite happy with the production. I know the seller can choose a number of options for the printed product. This one was quite nicely done. I wouldn't rule a product out because it's distributed through lulu! - Bob |
Marc33594 | 06 May 2008 4:52 a.m. PST |
Just bought a set this weekend at HMGS-South convention Recon in Orlando. In the US at least it is $30 USD or around 15 pounds. Not familiar with Moderns version. It does cover only 44 on but for both East and West fronts. Pictures were disappointing, especially compared to those on the author's site. Further disappointed they didnt have more examples of play and they could easily have substituted several of the pages with nothing but grainy B&W prints for a run through of several turns. That being said they look like good, simple, fun rules for skirmish level games and not disappointed I bought them. You will find extensive army lists so a bit more then merely core rules. I do know the vendor at Recon sold out very quickly so other folks apparently find them attractive. I can easily see, however, an entire franchise ala FOW with no end to books to flesh out either rules or OOB. However, right now, pretty pleased. |
Caesar | 06 May 2008 6:46 a.m. PST |
In the US they are $30 USD but if you look around you'll get them discounted. They are disappointing in paper quality and the b/w pictures. The rules are good, if simple and should be fun to play with. The book is put together better than previous Mongoose books. I don't think it was money thrown away. And I have a huge beef with Mongoose. |
MongooseMatt | 06 May 2008 7:02 a.m. PST |
>>>the Conan RPG that was so poorly edited and developed that the "Atlantean" edition And the person responsible lost his job because of it. It also caused us to completely revitalise the way books get edited, so it could not happen again. Aside from actually shooting the guy. . . >>>Evidently a "second-second" edition is coming along soon, It is a second printing, not a new edition. The only change is the addition of a mini-adventure, which was added due to the need for rounding up the page count, as we moved to offset printing. >>>Nothing you couldn't easily do yourself. Given the months of playtesting and rewriting involved, this is not quite as easy as it seems (ask Agis!). By any stretch, you would have to be. . . dedicated. >>>Further disappointed they didnt have more examples of play Our feedback from the original BF Evo book was that these were not especially desired. If we have more comments like yours, however, we would certainly look at putting them back in for Modern Combat and other books. |
Caesar | 06 May 2008 7:41 a.m. PST |
"And the person responsible lost his job because of it. It also caused us to completely revitalise the way books get edited, so it could not happen again." You know, you wouldn't have all the troubles and bad reputation you do now if you had just bothered to hire some quality control officers and a real PR person. |
Ken Portner | 06 May 2008 7:52 a.m. PST |
Months of playtesting and rewriting? I'm curious as to what was rewritten. Any possibility that you could explain so that people like me who bought BF Evo Modern can decide whether WAW includes any new rules or amendments that make a purchase worthwhile? |
MongooseMatt | 06 May 2008 8:26 a.m. PST |
>>>You know, you wouldn't have all the troubles and bad reputation you do now if you had just bothered to hire some quality control officers and a real PR person. I sometimes wonder what sort of company people think we are :) Four people work in our office. One to run the company, one to do the admin, and two to produce books. We have three full-time writers and, umm, that is about it. We really are a small company and, as such, cannot _afford_ a PR position. Our reputation with RPGs has always been solid. I acknowledge that we have a great deal of work to do on the miniatures side, which is the main reason we offlined our production for a year, to tackle the issues that are in the system. In the meantime, we can do what we do best – publish good games. As I said in another thread, we are not expecting miracles overnight in the miniatures market, and you are welcome to take your shots. The games themselves are good. The miniatures need work. >>>I'm curious as to what was rewritten. Any possibility that you could explain so that people like me who bought BF Evo Modern can decide whether WAW includes any new rules or amendments that make a purchase worthwhile? I'd be happy to. Cover has been revised, and is much easier to use, with gradiants of cover. Fire Zones now centre on a model, and rules covering sturctures, air units, and the like, have been greatly tightened up. Oh, and we have included a streamlined Engagements system, as first shown in Starship Troopers, if you are familiar, so you can now effectively create your own scenarios. The biggest change is in the army lists, in that they are now actually lists rather than unit cards. This has allowed us to hugely expand the range of units available and, more importantly, the options available to each. For example, the humble British Army Land Rover can be bought factory-fresh, with a pintle mounted MG, with a range of heavier weapons, and with make-shift armour. We have also straddled the army lists to include both ultra-modern/near future equipment such as FIST and Future Force Warrior, and older equipment for armies of around a decade in the past. We have army lists for the US Army, US Marines, British Army, German Heer, Russian Army, PLA, and a Middle Eastern coalition. Support is already laid out for Israel and 'African Warlords', but they will appear in a later book. In a nutshell, the rules are tighter, flow much better, and players have acres more choice in what they can do. Hope that helps! |
15mm and 28mm Fanatik | 06 May 2008 9:05 a.m. PST |
Mongoose has become the 'evil company' miniature gamers love to hate, right after GW. That's unfortunate. They just can't seem to shake their past. I'm still looking forward to WaW though. It may be a bit pricey for what you get (or don't get), but if the rules are fun and well written it's still money well spent. |
Ken Portner | 06 May 2008 9:05 a.m. PST |
Thanks Matt. Has there been any change to the vehicle rules? One of the things I found playing BF Evo was that the games tended to devolve into a contest over who could knock out the opposing vehicles first--once one side's vehicles were taken out the infantry were pretty much helpless. Perhaps this is "historical" but it didn't always make for a good game absent some type of special scenario. Also, your response to the other poster seems to suggest that Mongoose may at some point consider making miniatures again. I'd welcome that if only to be able to supplement my existing BF Evo Modern forces with new equipment since it's difficult to find models from other manufacturers that are really compatible with the Mongoose stuff. |
MongooseMatt | 06 May 2008 9:20 a.m. PST |
>>>Has there been any change to the vehicle rules? One of the things I found playing BF Evo was that the games tended to devolve into a contest over who could knock out the opposing vehicles first--once one side's vehicles were taken out the infantry were pretty much helpless. Ah, yes! This is the other big change in emphasis. Basically, we have made vehicles far, far more vulnerable to modern Anti-Tank weapons. RPGs aside, the average AT weapon will cause serious problems for any MBT, and has a good chance of finishing them for good. You won't advance your tanks into built up terrain that are heavily populated by enemy infantry – you'll be sending your own squads to sweep them out first. >>>Also, your response to the other poster seems to suggest that Mongoose may at some point consider making miniatures again. That is certainly the aim, though we are looking at it very, very thoroughly before we start making concrete plans. |
normsmith | 06 May 2008 1:20 p.m. PST |
Phil, I will still be buying a set from you. From what I hear, a constant observation is that these rules are simple, fun and playable – that is exactly where my wargaming is upto these days. I put content above gloss and I am too familiar with the all sizzle and no beef type products. GDW's Volley and Bayonet put content above gloss and they are universally accepted as a solid set of rules. I am expecting the same of WaW. I really detest systems that milk the gamer by producing lots of add on army list type stuff. I would rather pay more up front for a single complete ruleset. It is disappointing that WaW army lists did not go further but hopefully we will get all rules and all army lists into 2 volumes. Perhaps some strong internet support on army lists might be the way for Mongoose to go on this. |
pauld895 | 06 May 2008 3:47 p.m. PST |
I like the rules I am OK with the production and the B/W doesn't bother me (seems sort of WW2) If I get £15.00 GBP worth of play value out of the game rather than a glossy book that I hardly use I will be satisfied. I also think Mongoose deserve a pat on the back for all the free content in their Signs and Portents PDF's |
Marc33594 | 07 May 2008 5:05 a.m. PST |
">>>Further disappointed they didnt have more examples of play Our feedback from the original BF Evo book was that these were not especially desired. If we have more comments like yours, however, we would certainly look at putting them back in for Modern Combat and other books." Or perhaps on your website. That way dont "offend" folks who dont want/need them in their book and yet give some of us a chance who do find they clear up any confusing parts. |
BoltAction | 07 May 2008 5:08 a.m. PST |
The RRP is £15, not £19.50. I'm dissapointed that it's only B/W especially as it features so many of our figures painted extremely well by some of the best around. It would have been a corker in colour, but is that the main function of a set of rules?? THe only comment on the content was that it only covers late war. I'm off to Mongoose hall this weekend to get a few games in and see how it plays out on the table – that really defines the 'value' in a set of rules. We're really spoilt for choice now with WWII rules! Variety is the spice of life. Si
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MongooseMatt | 07 May 2008 6:05 a.m. PST |
>>>Or perhaps on your website. That way dont "offend" folks who dont want/need them in their book and yet give some of us a chance who do find they clear up any confusing parts. In the first WaW battle report we did (S&P issue 55, I believe), we broke down a lot of what we were doing in terms of rules, to explain what we were doing and why – that might help out. |
Marc33594 | 08 May 2008 4:25 a.m. PST |
Thanks for the tip on S&P 55. Took me a bit to find it on the website and wasnt sure, since before these rules had no dealings with Mongoose, what S&P was! I did download the issue in question and noticed several articles on WaW. Nice touch having the back issues and being able to download for free. |
CptKremmen | 08 May 2008 2:37 p.m. PST |
I don't think Mongoose are perfect, but I actually think Matt and the guys at Mongoose do their best. I think they try to do a good job and some of their products are very good. I am a big fan of the ACTA rules 1st and 2nd ed. I don't like the problems they had with the printing quality of 2nd ed but I thought they got that sorted out. I never bothered with BF Evo modern, didn't like the figures. I will be buying the new WAW WW2 version, it sounds rather a good set of rules. I am also ordering Disposable heroes. It will be interesting to see which I prefer. As I tend more towards beer and pretzel games (and my friends even more so) I may well prefer the mongoose rules. When I manage to track a copy down, I'll do a quickie review, with no pro or anti mongoose baggage, just a fair review of the rules as they are. There are only two organisations I have vowed never to give a 2nd chance to. One is the Ford motor company, and the other is the British Labour Party, neither will ever see a vote or a penny from me again. Mongoose products I still treat on their merits one by one. Andy PS Shame you canned the B5 mini's Matt. |
Aurelian | 10 May 2008 2:30 a.m. PST |
I'm pretty excited about these rules, Matt. Have heard good things, and I've really got my mind racing and thinking seriously about a couple supplement ideas. Would love to give them a crack, assuming the rules work as well as I've been led to believe. Good luck to you guys, regardless. -A. |
soulman | 10 May 2008 12:42 p.m. PST |
Yes these rules are good, not prefect, but i would play them any day other flames of war, its just a more simple and fun system, and for tank battles, better then flames any day
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Marc33594 | 11 May 2008 4:27 a.m. PST |
I did check out the authors site (www.agism.de) and he suggested authors cut, which is only 3 pages with examples and charts included, look like a worthy addition at least as optional rules. |
DaiKonjo | 11 May 2008 5:05 a.m. PST |
He has had to remove them I think – but there are enough people with them if anyone wants them just ask :-) |
Marc33594 | 11 May 2008 9:52 a.m. PST |
The correct site is agisn.de, sorry for the typo and yes there is now a notice he has had to remove them for legal reasons. A pity really. They added to the rules nicely and didnt detract from the. Glad I printed out a copy! |