"Who's Miniatures Have Aged the Best?" Topic

This was spawned after reading this topic TMP link regarding people wanting to get old Ral Partha miniatures and give them modern paint jobs.

Now, I can't imagine too many people wanting to try that with some of the original Grenadier figures, much less Der Kriegspielers or other figures that looked like their subjects if you squinted and held them just right. And, to be honest, there are more than a few old RP figures that are just as dodgy.

In my opinion, there are a few sculptors who's works of a decade or more ago still look contemporary. Whether it was style, or being able to work around the limitations of casting, or merely putting a semblance of "life" into their sculpts, one could paint an old figure up and not have to apologize for the age of the figure.

My short list would be; Kev White, Julie Guthrie and the Perry brothers. I never had a name to associate with my 1980's Citadels, until Kev told me who sculpted them, and they're pretty much the standard which I hold 28mm up to. Ms. Guthrie's sculpts have always been very paintable and have had character. And Kev's early stuff – at least the items I've seen – look as good as what comes out today.

I'm not taking anything away from Tom Meier, but his earlier work isn't always as good as his later stuff, so while individual pieces have aged well, the same can't be said overall. Points also go to whomever sculpts/sculpted the Mithril Lord of the Rings figures. Its always been a unique style, and that has remained consistent.

Who would you choose? No need to limit it to fantasy figs, either.

Wyatt

For whatever reason, I've always like Bob Olley's stuff in spite of (or perhaps because of) its, er, ugliness. He's remained pretty consistent.

While not a fan of his poses, I always thought Dennis Mize's work held to a consistent standard throughout the years.

Guthrie is, of course, a no-brainer. Her work has always been good.

I still really like Essex 15mm despite their age. In fact, I almost prefer Essex and Old Glory over the more modern 15's that have come out in the last few years.

-Joe

Bob Olley's beastmen are being sold by MegaMiniatures these days and look good enough I want to order some. Thanks to the chap on Lead Adventure who posted the pics of the ones he painted recently :)

I'd nominate Josef Ochmann, Michael Immig, and Werner Klocke
ne of Hobby Products 'SpaceLords' line (among others).
link
TMP link
picture
Not only does that line hold up, iy has yet to be exceeded in my opinion.
(And, some are still available throughEM4)

Jes Goodwin's stuff has always held up pretty well. In fact, his original Eldar aspect warriors are still may favorite over the new versions.

Historicals would have to be Perry's.

Airfix Afrika Korps.

Scale creep aside, 30+ yr old Ral Partha Greeks are still unbeaten. I'd have said "without equal" but that is no longer true.

Their old "Roman" Orcs are only slightly younger, and are also still as good as it gets.

"I can't imagine too many people wanting to try that with some of the"

Check the dates on the figures closely. The quality of sculpting took a jump as the green epoxy, now called Kneadatite, began to be used. I introduced it to the Perry twins on my first trip to England in 1978 I think. Up to then Michael and Alan had been using Milliput exclusively. I don't know how long they'd been sculpting up to then.

It wasn't till 1979 I began to think of sculpting as a real job, up to then it was just something I did instead of a paper route. The standard of sculpting up to that time was so low (with a few exceptions) I didn't have to be very good to be better than most of what was available(I started sculpting professionally when I was 15 in 1973). In 1979 I started trying to do the best I could rather than just get as much done as I could (I was under constant pressure to produce more sculpts), this was the time when I made the Renaissance line for Ral Partha.

Ral Partha hired Dennis Mize and Julie Guthrie in the early 1980's.

I think GHQ's ships and tanks have held up superbly over time.

Well, that explains a hell of a lot! It explains not only the quantum leap in a very short time period on your figures, but it also explains what appears to be an overall qualitative improvement in miniatures as a whole. I had attributed that to the companies being more selective and people starting to take the hobby more seriously. I was a bit off, it would appear.

It also explains why I couldn't believe the same person had sculpted some 1975 figures had also sculpted the 1985 figures I liked so well. I just went and poked through some of the old lead boxes for a few that I think are yours and have a date. I hadn't noticed a specific "start time" when the quality improved. The difficulty also comes with a lot of miniatures having unmarked bases so its hard to tell when or by whom a mini was sculpted. But, now that you've mentioned it, I can see it. I must modify my original assessment – your "taking it seriously" (for lack of a better phrase) miniatures HAVE held up over time.

And, while I have your attention. As a long-time "end user" let me thank you, Mr. Meier for not only producing some fabulous stuff, but for also helping others improve their craft.

Wyatt

I don't think that any sculpts have held up over time in terms of quality today versus the quality of 20 or more years ago. It is like comparing the Model T to a Corvette, the technology literally JUMPED that far forward in the span of 5 years with the advent of Kneadatite/Green Stuff and the explosion of new sculptors and the refinement of the good sculptors.

I have a fair amount of the Ral Partha Renaissance line of figures that Tom did back in the day. In their day – they were probably some of the best sculpts out there, very good detail, very well proportioned – for their day. Unfortunately, scale creep is a reality. I've placed them next to successor figures and they look like teenagers by comparison – and not very big teenagers either. The detail is still alright – but not as good as it is now days, the molds are capable of retaining a bit more undercutting today as the molding compounds have gotten better and better, too.

Tom's new stuff is simply amazing to which Tom should reply with a quote from The Princess Bride – "I should be after twenty years now!" The Perry Brothers have also made huge leaps in their art, they have done better and better sculpts every year, even after tragedy struck – their work ethic and dedication to detail is amazing.

So, in my opinion there really isn't any work which holds up under the test of time.

Wyatt, I must respectfully disagree a bit. While I think Julie Guthrie is an amazing artist and love her consistantly good detail and proportion, I find much of her earlier work (such as the Fantasy Personalities line) very static and somewhat lifeless. It seems to me that she used to only replicate the same poses again and again.

I would rank TM's work from the same period as more consistantly "good" for being more dynamic while still exhibiting incredible detail and character.

Most of Tom's elves and orcs from the Fantasy Collector Series (I think that is what it was called) are on permenant display in my collection and are the only figures that old that never get put away. As much as I love Julie Guthrie's stuff, it only comes out of the closet occansionally for a visit.

Just my .02.

Cheers,
Jason

"Tom's new stuff"

There is again a partial technical explanation here. In the early 1990's there was a scare about litigation over lead in figures which caused most companies to start using unleaded alloy. Essentially they switched to the alloy they had been using as ‘master metal' that is, the stronger, more durable and better casting alloy they used to make patterns.

About this time I was working almost exclusively for Hasbro, when they moved from Cincinnati to Rhode Island and I began to make hobby figures again I designed them to take advantage of being produced in the harder, stronger better-able-to-hold-detail no-lead alloy.

The point is big jumps are usually less about improvement in skills (though I'm always trying to improve) and more about what's possible within material limitations.

I think style and technical excellence in sculpting are two different things. I have a unit of Heritage Bugbears from about 1980 that among my prized possessions. Technically the sculpts are far inferior to an accepted standard today, but stylistically they score high in my book and I would unashamedly put them on the table next to a "modern" sculpt. In my opinion, much of Mr. Meier's "older" work is technichally and stylistically the equal to or better than most "modern" sculpts of an equivalent subject matter.

Peter Gilder's Sudan and ACW ranges, plus some of his Napoleonics (such as the Saxon cuirasiers and garde du corps of 1812, Polish Guard Lancers and the basic French and British infantry).

Stadden/Tradition 30mm figures are still elegant and graceful sculpts. Stadden made the best looking horses that I have ever seen, bar none.

It's hard to believe that some of the Perrys' Foundry sculpts are 20 years old. I still like their Late Romans and period barbarians (Saxons, Franks and Picts).

The two I'd like to add to the list are:

Nick Lund's orcs. They pretty much emote mean and green.

Bob Charrette samurai. Pretty darned good.

I have lots of "stylistic" favorites. The solid-based orcs and goblins from Citadel mid-1980's are one of my all time favorites.

I painted all of these last year – link

I also found that when a lot of models went to multi-part, the poses became more dynamic and allowed for more cuts into the figure. I know a lot of the early large sculpts came multi-piece, but when the normal rank and file became multi-part, the quality of the castings and sculpting became better. Or so it seems to me.

"I think style and technical excellence in sculpting are two different things. I have a unit of Heritage Bugbears from about 1980 that among my prized possessions. Technically the sculpts are far inferior to an accepted standard today, but stylistically they score high in my book and I would unashamedly put them on the table next to a "modern" sculpt. In my opinion, much of Mr. Meier's "older" work is technichally and stylistically the equal to or better than most "modern" sculpts of an equivalent subject matter."

This is something I've touched on in other minis fora; a lot of modern minis are technically excellent, but somewhere down the line there has become an association of quality = detail (at least with SF/Fantasy minis). While such an association can be obvious, I think the other hand of this result is many modern minis become too "busy." One example, I have an old Perry's Norse Dwarf from GW. This figure is simply wearing a mail coat, has a pouch or two, and IIRC a sheathed sword. He also has an orc face belt buckle. Because of the overall plainness of the background, this detail sticks out and naturally draws the eye (it has a lot of "finesse"). Such a detail on modern figures would be lost in the sea of belts, plates, pouches, magic items, etc…

Damon.

The Perrys' stuff took a big leap in the early nineties compared with their much rougher earlier ranges; their concept of how fat people ought to be has varied up and down over the years.

I think the ranges that Der Alter Fritz mentions liking are middle nineties, although I could be wrong.

I'd nominate Copplestone's fabulous barbarians done for Grenadier (c 1990??) as being still just fantastic, in a muscle bound, flesh-cleaving way.

I'm biased, having said that some of the Rose Prestige range would fit.

I don't know the sculptors, but some of the old Partha figs were and are great looking figs.

Oh, though I never asked him about it, I have been told that Bill Lamming used to carve his masters out of brass….

Who did sculpt the old Mithirl figures? Those have a very uniquea style.

I tend to prefer older models because they are more interesting and less cookie cutter. No need to look further than the old Grenadier gold box line of figures to see that.

Definitly Mark Copplestone. Both his Fantays figures and his early Killzone range. I LOVE his stuff along with many of the other folks mentioned above.

Thanks,

John

I do not know very well about the sculptors, but about companies I'd choose Wargames Foundry as the ones that aged best.

I believe the first Mithril Miniatures where produced in 1985 or 86. They still look excellent, I think.

I have no idea how old the late medieval range from the Perry twins is (now sold by Foundry – once Citadel), but I still like them, especialy the mounted knights.

I also have a range of Orcs/Goblins from the early eighties (Ral Parta or Citadel?) which I like (pre slotta, no idea who did them) and the Chronicle Orcs from Nick Lund.

Am I getting old?

Mithril is still sculpted by Chris Tubb.

Still partial to my Ral Partha figures; Greeks, Condotierri, and Hittites. I think these have held up well.
I have the Foundry Hittites along with the Rals and prefer the Ral Patha…especially the chariots.
Now, the feathers on the Heritage Polish Winged Hussar…nice. The rugged quality of Lamming's pikemen
The heroic girth of these later sculpts puts me off..and some of the leg detail in many of the OG Biblicals is…lacking.
But you can't argue against today's choices.

Oggie

I still think that Essex 25mm Medievals are hard to beat. I have yet to see anything better.
Genadier Medievals are thge only thing that comes close, and they are old too. Their only problem was that the horses were a little too large for the humans.

If only Essex riders would fit on old Grenadier horses! However a saddle cast on both rider and horse makes that rather difficult.

"Stadden/Tradition 30mm figures are still elegant and graceful sculpts."

I was thinking of Stadden when I said "with a few exceptions"; to the rule of pre-1980's figure sculpting being technically poor.

Copplestone, definitely. He's gotten better over the years, but even his earliest work is nothing to be ashamed of.

Ali Morrison was pretty good back in the day. Citadel Samurai were beautifully dynamic compared to the norm of the times – in fact they hold up pretty well against some of the more modern ranges.

I agree, El Cid. I have half a dozen of them – and I don't play any Japanese-themed rulesets.

Wyatt

I was going to comment early on but the thread took a sharp left-hand turn into crazy talk.

For me, the most significant qualitative leap was the release of Mr. Meier's Renaissance range for Ral Partha. There were a few similar fantasy models he did around the same time: an elf or two in particular that won our first printing contests for us spring to mind; and the magnificent Empire of the Petal Throne models which RP did briefly.

But it was at that point where the future of 25mm historicals really looked bright, and crisp, and clean.

It's interesting to see explained the connection between technical advances and quantum jumps in quality.

Allen

I have to agree with Mostly Harmless that the style of many old minis outstrips their technical accoplishment, especially considering that it was still pretty much a pioneering age for the medium. Some of my old Grenadier and Heritage minis are still viable, even if their detail (and sometimes proportion) can't hold a candle to the best sculpts of today. I see minis come out all the time that I find to be very well-executed, but don't really have that spark. I guess its all about art vs. craft.

But then, that's probably really off the subject.

Old Minifigs stuff has something going for it in the weirdness department and fetch some silly prices on E Bay.
Their LOTR 'Man Orcs' are among my fav all time figs.

"I have no idea how old the late medieval range from the Perry twins is (now sold by Foundry – once Citadel), but I still like them, especialy the mounted knights."

They are from late eighties. I have a lot of those, forming my WotR armies. Love them.

Oh, you mean which manufacturer's, I thought you meant whose collection. Imho, Ral Partha's still remain the best for crisp detail. Julie Guthrie's for excellence in variety and character. And Citadel's for most variety in unit quality figures; and the best for historical accuracy and size of weapons. Yegods! the size of weapons these days, even in historicals so much of the time. Puke.

"I think the ranges that Der Alter Fritz mentions liking are middle nineties, although I could be wrong."

Mexican Jack- you are showing your age! those figs mentioned are from the very early 80's! Stadden's 30mm stuff is even earlier- mid 70's and they are still fantastic.
Seeing as the old Maestro Peter Gilder has passed on and can't sue me – (and I think I'd win even if he could) I'm pretty sure that some of his Connoiseur figs (particularly the Saxon Cav mentioned) used Stadden lower bodies – (Though of course he could claim the same about a couple of Elite miniatures horses- which bear a remarkable simularity to a couple of connoisseur sculpts).

I think Peter Laing figures are as good as they ever were !