"Extraordinarii" Topic

Ive come across this term in Polybius.
Exactly what are the Extraordinarii? How were they equipped and used?

They were a picked selection of the Italian allies. They'd have been the same as the other allies although it is possible that those who had better equipment might find themselves more likely to get picked.
There were supposed to be 200 cavalry and 600 infantry extraordinarii per legion and they were to act as the vanguard when marching (unless attack was expected form the rear, in which case they were the rearguard).

Swampster refers to Polybius, Book VI.26.

- Greg

Thanx. Armed and equipped how?

Why don't you read it and then you tell us what you think.

- Greg

Hi, Greg,
I take it you dont have access to Polybius?
Im glad to share what I have on the extraordinarii so far.
Please note: a lot of this is speculation. Im still trying to come to terms with them (and even their existence!) which is why I asked here. Note there are a lot of informed people on this forum. You should not feel hesitant to ask questions too.
OK Polybius goes to some length to explain the setting up and ordering of camps. He mentions the extraordinarri in terms of their separate position in the camp. Not a lot of information: they're Italian allies, volunteers, act as body guards and as vanguards. The numbers are as Swampie givs, above.
Were the cavalry more "dragoons"? Mounted infantry? This seems a possibility given they were brigaded as foot and mounted.
Livy does not mention them at all, I think. I cant find anything in Livy which is odd. Did they exist for a notable period or were they a brief experiment?
Other tertiary sources I found did say they existed from the third to the second centuries BC.
Ive even read that Marcus Brutus, Caesar's pal, was a commander of them during the Civil Wars but I wont vouch for this. Arms and equipment is not an area I am sure of.
I would guess they provided their own. If they were an elite, maybe still in Italian style? Maybe aping the Romans? Scutum, chain mail coat,gladius hispaniensus, pilum, greaves for foot, exchange javelins for pilum for mounted?
I hope this helps you.

Thank you Raducci.

Here is a place you can get the complete text of Polybius in English, and it is free:

link

Livy mentions the Allied troops, and in Book 8.8 specifically mentions them being organized the same as the Roman troops:

"When the battle formation of the army was completed, the hastati were the first to engage. If they failed to repulse the enemy, they slowly retired through the intervals between the companies of the principes who then took up the fight, the hastati following in their rear. The triarii, meantime, were resting on one knee under their standards, their shields over their shoulders and their spears planted on the ground with the points upwards, giving them the appearance of a bristling palisade. If the principes were also unsuccessful, they slowly retired to the triarii, which has given rise to the proverbial saying, when people are in great difficulty "matters have come down to the triarii." When the triarii had admitted the hastati and principes through the intervals separating their companies they rose from their kneeling posture and instantly closing their companies up they blocked all passage through them and in one compact mass fell on the enemy as the last hope of the army. The enemy who had followed up the others as though they had defeated them, saw with dread a now and larger army rising apparently out of the earth. There were generally four legions enrolled, consisting each of 5000 men, and 300 cavalry were assigned to each legion. A force of equal size used to be supplied by the Latins, now, however, they were hostile to Rome. The two armies were drawn up in the same formation, and they knew that if the maniples kept their order they would have to fight, not only vexilla with vexilla, hastati with hastati, principes with principes, but even centurion with centurion. There were amongst the triarii two centurions, one in each army-the Roman, possessing but little bodily strength but an energetic and experienced soldier, the Latin, a man of enormous strength and a splendid fighter-very well known to each other because they had always served in the same company. The Roman, distrusting his own strength, had obtained the consuls' permission before leaving Rome to choose his own sub-centurion to protect him from the man who was destined to be his enemy. This youth, finding himself face to face with the Latin centurion, gained a victory over him".

As the Extraordinarii were, as the name implies "select Allied troops", we know that they were hand picked men. One fifth of the Allied infantry were selected and one third of the Allied cavalry, and formed "The Extraordinarrii".

- Greg

Well thanks, Greg. I do have my old paperbacks of Polybius & Livy but thank you for the kind gesture.
I understand Livy wasnt a military man like Polybius and is vaguer in describing the Roman soldiery and their doings.
Do you think he's referring to the extraordinarii in this passage?

I would not call Polybius a military man. Certainly a historian, he was a hostage, and developed a close friendship with young Publius Scipio (Scipio Africanus later).

My opinion is he was lacking as a military historian as there are a number of contradicting statements and omissions in his works. In his defense, many of his works are lost to history. Enough of that from me on TMP.

If you want complete texts by these authors, I'd recommend staying away from the paperbacks as they are usually heavily edited and have entire sections missing. The on-line texts are much more complete and are much easier to use than a book, in my opinion.

I have not found Livy directly mentioning the "Extraordinarii" in any of his works. If we piece together Livy and Polybius, I feel we get a very good representation of the Roman army of this period.

Have fun!

- Greg

Yes my understanding was Polybius was brought to Rome as a hostage and was placed in the family of the Scipios. He went on campaigns with S Aemillianus. This doesnt make him a soldier but he has been described as the best Ancient military historian extant. Please correct me if Im wrong.
The difficulty with his work is that hes writing for a Greek audience about the Romans and is trying to use terminology and examples familiar to them.
ThanX for the heads up re the paperbacks.
BTW do you think the extraordinarii morphed into the Praetorians?

The first nine cohorts of Praetorian Guard were created by Augustus in 26 or 27 BC.

Since the "Allied" contingencies in legions had long ceased to exist as such, I would say no, the extraordinarri did not "morph" into the Guard.

- Greg

"Praetorian" was the name given to the bodyguard units used by roman commanders since at least 200BC – it is possible Scipio had praetorians before Zama IIRC.

so it is entirely possible that Extraordinarii were sometimes praetorians….but as GRP says the Guard as an aorganisation didn't exist prior to Augustus, so they were never the Praetorian Guard.

there some commentary on the Roman army at link that discusses the Extraordinarii & their roles and positions.

the PG was formed from the veterans of both sides of the civil war.

As for the Penguin paperbacks – there's nothing wrong with them.

Many of the on-line translations are versions from teh 18th century that can be reproduced because ethy are out of copyright!! But in any case few of them are wrong although it's often interesting to see how different translators render some terms.

Gaps in texts are mostly because those sections have been lost.

Indeed!???

"As for the Penguin paperbacks – there's nothing wrong with them.

Many of the on-line translations are versions from teh 18th century that can be reproduced because ethy are out of copyright!! But in any case few of them are wrong although it's often interesting to see how different translators render some terms.

Gaps in texts are mostly because those sections have been lost".

You could not be more incorrect on this.

Get out your Penguin paperback, and go section by section with a complete text.

You will find many ommissions.

One example:

Penguin Classics, ISBN 0.14.04.4362.2, "The Rise of the Roman Empire", by Polybius. Book III, 36,37,38 are all missing.

The same text at:

link

"36 That my narrative may not be altogether obscure to readers owing to their ignorance of the topography I must explain whence Hannibal started, what countries he traversed, and into what part of Italy he descended. Nor must I simply give the names of countries, rivers, and cities, as some authors do under the idea that this is amply sufficient for a clear knowledge. I am of opinion that as regards known countries the mention of names is of no small assistance in recalling them to our memory, but in the case of unknown lands such citation of names is just of as much value as if they were unintelligible and inarticulate sounds. For the mind here has nothing to lean upon for support and cannot connect the words with anything known to it, so that the narrative is associated with nothing in the readers' mind,Link to the editor's note at the bottom of this page and therefore meaningless to him. We must therefore make it possible when speaking of unknown places to convey to the reader a more or less real and familiar notion of them.

Now the primary and most general conception and one common to all mankind is the division and ordering of the heavens by which all of us, even those of the meanest capacity, distinguish East, West, South, and North. The next step in knowledge is to classify the parts of the earth under each of these divisions, ever mentally referring each statement to one of them until we arrived at a familiar conception of unknown and unseen regions.

37 This once established as regards the whole earth, it remains for me to lay before my readers the division on the same principle of that portion of the world known to us. This is divided into three parts, each with its name, the one part being called Asia, the second Africa, and the third Europe. Their respective boundaries are the river Don, the Nile, and the straits at the Pillars of Hercules. Asia lies between the Nile and Don and falls under that portion of the heaven lying between the north-east and the south. Africa lies between the Nile and the Pillars of Hercules, and it falls under the south to the south-west and west, as far as the point of the equinoctial sunset, in which latter quarter are the Pillars of Hercules. These two divisions of the earth, then, regarded from a general point of view, occupy the part of it which lies to the south of the Mediterranean, reaching from east to west, its most compact and deepest portion lying due north between the Don and the Narbo, the latter river being not far to the west of Marseilles and of the mouths by which the Rhone discharges itself into the Sardinian Sea. The Celts inhabit the country near the Narbo and beyond it as far as the chain of the Pyrenees which stretches in an unbroken remaining part of Europe beyond the Pyrenees reaching to its western end and to the Pillars of Hercules is bounded on the one side by the Mediterranean and on the other by the Outer Sea, that portion of which is washed by the Mediterranean as far as the Pillars of Hercules being called Iberia, while that part which lies along the Outer or Great Sea has no general name, as it has only recently come under notice, but is all densely inhabited by barbarous tribes of whom I shall speak more particularly on a subsequent occasion.

38 Just as with regard to Asia and Africa where they meet in Aethiopia no one up to the present has been able to say with certainty whether the southern extension of them is continuous land or is bounded by a sea, so that part of Europe which extends to the north between the Don and Narbo is up to now unknown to us, and will remain so unless the curiosity of explorers lead to some discoveries in the future. We must pronounce that those who either by word of mouth or in writing make rash statements about these regions have no knowledge of them, and invent mere fables.

I have said so much in order that my narrative should not be without something to range itself under in the minds of those who are ignorant of the localities, but that they should have some notion at least of the main geographical distinctions, with which they can connect in thought and to which they can refer my statements, calculating the position of places from the quarter of the heaven under which they lie. For as in the case of physical sight we are in the habit of turning our faces in the direction of any object pointed out to us, so should we mentally ever turn and shift our glance to each place to which the story calls our attention".

Have a nice day!

- Greg

Al, great link. Probably one of the best commentaries Ive read.
ThanX.

Greg, I have noticed strange amendments and omissions in various translations too.

It didn't occur to me outright until I was looking at different translations a few years ago and noticed different numbers in one of them for the Extraordinarii (My favorite Rep Roman troops)…

I have also found similar strangeness in Livy's Early Roman Histories… But, since I have had my nose in circuits, logic problems and calculus for the last two years… I haven't had a lot of time to read History… Kinda bums me out at times…

Especially not having time to paint as much as I would like (A lot of that is due to not having a proper place to paint until last month)… That bums me out too.

I have been told that my Senior year (Hopefully in two years if I can keep up my current pace) will be a breeze compared to my Sophomore year…

Anyway, I am also hoping that I can get a booklet of the Yahoo e-paper before it comes out to use to read these guys again (Those who wrote about ancient Rome). That stuff is freaking weird. It looks like glossy paper, with regular print and photos on it… BUT… The photos can also be animations of video.. Video that looks like a picture on a piece of paper that is moving… Freakiest thing I have ever seen…

But… Its cool as all heck to be able to shuffle the text around, so you can have the pages display different sections side-by-side, or top/bottom, or have a side-bar that stays on the page you are reading… The stuff is going to be the death of the printed word as we know it (Traditional books)…

And, you can keep upwards of 32Gb in one 32 page booklet of their e-paper (actually, I think that it is 32Gb with the core 2-sheets, which has the spine built into it. The other pages are just "Peripherals" to that core spine and 2 sheets/4 pages)

No doubt about it. Electronic texts are much easier to use, take notes with, and use for research than a hard copy text. For years, I would take notes, mark spots in books, and be thumbing around through this book or that book asking myself, "where did I read that at"?

Now, one can go from text to text doing research on a specific item, and literally "cut & paste" into a separate document and piece it all together from several different sources, and then easily have it in front of you where one obtained it.

Isn't technology great!

- Greg