"Is this word offensive in a Western game?" Topic

I'm working on some Mexican characters and rules for Gutshot and am considering using a word to describe poor farmers and field workers. For those of you familiar with the game, these characters would be NPCs using uor Mob movement and activation rules.

The word is Peon.

Does anyone here find this word particularly offensive?

And before you suggest I ask some Mexicans and other Latin Americans… I will. Right now I want the average opinion of the average gamer.

Thanks in advance!

To me "peon" is just another word for peasant, low men on the totem pole, etc. I thought it was 17th century or so in origin but I realized until you asked that I had no real idea of its origin.

I think you're completely safe here. It originally meant indentured servant, manual laborer or the like en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peon

Dictionary.com has a similar definition link

Wyatt

Will 'Peon' be used exclusively to represent Mexican peasants and/or farmworker NPC's, or -all- peasant/farmworker NPCs?

If I can have Mexican, Chinese, Mormon, and Amish Peons alike;
no problem (IMO).

Spanish chess players will need to be sent to sensitivity re-education camps if the term is in fact offensive.

I don't think it's offensive. It is describing a class of people from a certain area. In the terms of a war game if people of the period used the term and you want them in the game I think you should use it for flavour at the least.

So if you wanted to use the term sodbuster for a farmer type or Limey in the title of a game to represent British, it would be fine.

Peonage doesn't just mean ploughman; it implies membership in the quasi-feudal hacienda social system as well. Peons were typically bound by debt to the hacienda.

Campesino is a more general term for a fieldworker, although most campesinos in New Spain and its successor states were effectively tied to haciendas as well.

Peonage doesn't just mean ploughman

Right: I get that, and that the word is of Spanish origin:
I was thinking of a 'Company Store' situation for the examples I listed.

The question, I think, is whether you are creating a 'character class' in an RP sense of the word (ala NPC) or attempting to model a specific historical type.

My Impression (based on Playing GutShot) is that you are likely developing the former, extrapolating from the later. If my theory is right, the potential cultural confusion can be sidestepped entirely by explicitly seperating the Historical origin of 'Peon' from the game mechanics of the NPC class.

Thus: any and all -potential- 'Peons' in a given historical encounter
(White, Black, Mexican, Oriental, even Native American) could be utilised by your average wily gaming group.

If my theory is wrong (eg you are modeling a Mexico/Hispanic only 'Peon'):
I'd go with Campesino
(…or just forget I said anything).
< shrug >

Sounds OK to me, but I admit I'm not familiar with the racial/semantic issues of the time pertaining to Mexican peasants.

From a game mechanic point of view, I guess I'd vote for campesino as well, just because it's less sociologically specific. On the other hand, I would expect a peon to always run, since he only has his life, whereas some campesinos might stand and fight since they might actually have had some stake in the property around them.

I think Peon was a character class in the TableTopGames western rules, "Once upon a time in the west", but they were written years ago. It applied to all nations that might be represented in the game though.

Of course campesino might be loaded too – El Campesino, the famous communist SCW commander…

Honestly, I think peon is fine.

Mike your a Texan so say what you want.

Brian

There's worse……

I don't think you have a problem.

G^is,
JohnG

It's my job title.

If it helps, you could have a Mexican character who speaks near flawless English. While my Tía hardly spoke English when she met my Tío (and her cultured English will always have that background accent it seems) I have met several people who have come to America for business, pleasure or emigration who had better English skills then some native born residents.

If EVERY Mexican character speaks like a cartoon stereotype then some sensitive soul might be distressed by the word peon but if there is a variation in the NPCs interactions (some don't speak ANY english, some have 'survival communication' skills and some, due to experience or education, speak fairly clear English) then the word peon will blend into the settings for all but the most PC person.

Ooh, now that's a thought. If your Spanish is good enough you could put the players in a setting where nobody but them speaks English. LOL, I have to write that up – it works for more then just Gutshot!

Gracias,

Glenn

Quick definitions (peon)

noun:

a laborer who is obliged to do menial work
name:

A surname (very rare: popularity rank in the U.S.: #54978)

peon
1826, from Mex.Sp. peon "agricultural laborer" (esp. a debtor held in servitude by his creditor), from Sp., "day laborer," also "pedestrian," originally "foot soldier," from M.L. pedonem "foot soldier" (see pawn (2)). The word entered British Eng. earlier (1609) in the sense "native constable, soldier, or messenger in India," via Port. peao "pedestrian, foot soldier, day laborer."

pe·on [ p òn, p ən ] (plural pe·ons)

noun

Definition:

1. drudge: somebody who does boring menial tasks ( informal )

2. Hispanic laborer: in Latin America and the southern United States, especially formerly, a farm laborer who was forced to work for a creditor until a debt was paid off

3. South Asia low-paid worker: formerly, in India and Sri Lanka, a low-paid office worker, soldier, or public servant

[Early 17th century. Via Spanish peón, Portuguese peão "foot soldier" < medieval Latin pedon-< Latin ped- "foot"]


Gracias,

Glenn

I don't see it as a problem. It looks like a legal/technical term from your period describing a specific group of people, like peasant in the Middle Ages or (exploited) proletariat in Communist societies in our own lifetimes. It may not be exactly an honor to belong, but it is the appropriatr term.

Of course, if you refer to them as "illiterate peasants," as a local Colorado legislator down at the capitol building in Denver did last week, expect to be evicted from the podium!

If it worries you, put in a disclaimer explaining that you are trying to give the feel of the era, and such words don't necessarily reflect your views, are not intended as insults, etc.

Grelber
Descendent of peasants.

vtsaogames,

Several of us have that title. LOL!

Gracias,

Glenn

Missing words added…

To "call" someone a peon with a certain tone when they are not a indentured servant certainly could be construed as an (fairly lame) attempt at an insult. There are so many 'better' ones in either language…

Used to describe a group or class in a game ["…the peons live south of the main structure of the hacienda…"] should not be a problem.

Used in the lines for a character in the story/game setting would be dependent on the intent of the character.

Context may not be everything but it's close.

Gracias,

Glenn

Aye – the context thing is interesting. I've been told that "China-men" is offensive (during a Boxer Rebellion game). That has to be BORN of bad context then.

I am a peon. I am not offended.

I'm bilingual Spanish and English and spent 10 years living in Latin America from El Salvador to Bolivia and several places in between. Also, being from southern Arizona I've traveled several times in Mexico. Oh, and I had a MexAm brother-in-law and sister-in-law.

I've never heard "peon" used or interpreted in a derogatory manner -- it's more of a "class" issue.

Flashman14, I much prefer Chinese dudes to Chinamen. Not sure why, but it rubs the wrong way. Brings up images of guys in coolie hats with buck teeth and thick glasses. OK, I have the thick glasses.

But my peon job calls…

Peon=Peasant.
NO ofence.
Here in Mexico construction workers are called "albañiles" and the young apprentice "albañiles" are still called peones.

In my youth,I thought "China-Men" were people like Josiah Wedgewood,Josiah Spode,Francois Boch,etc.

Thanks everyone for a literate, interesting discussion on the topic. I'm familiar with the historical aspects of the word, Peon, and with the ties it has to the old hacienda system. I'm also familiar with the differences it has with Campasinos.

Hey Nonny Mouse hit it dead on:

My Impression (based on Playing Gutshot) is that you are likely developing the former, extrapolating from the later. If my theory is right, the potential cultural confusion can be sidestepped entirely by explicitly separating the Historical origin of 'Peon' from the game mechanics of the NPC class.

Thus: any and all – potential – 'Peons' in a given historical encounter (White, Black, Mexican, Oriental, even Native American) could be utilized by your average wily gaming group.

We're experimenting with a Character Type (in D&D terms, this would be a character class) that will have some rules and stats modified to use them in Mobs (i.e. they all move and attack on the same activation: think of the "faceless masses" in a battle scene). Campasinos (as well as Banditos and Vaqueros) will be other Character Types, but right now we're just talking about a Mob of Peons.

One thing, though, I personally would not call a mixed-race/mixed-culture group "Peons." If there are Blacks, Whites and Asians in there, it would just feel wrong. When we use the word Peon, it will refer specifically to untrained Mexican peasants. Other cultures will use other terms.

I was asking specifically about this word because we want to maintain a sense of history and flavor in the text and rules, but don't want to offend people excessively. For example, years ago I conducted a survey on the word "Injun" and many Native Americans said it was offensive, so we dropped it. However, we decided to keep the word "Indian" (in spite of a few objections) because the term "Native American" just didn't fit the flavor of a game set in the American West.

-------------

By the way, we already have a Character Type for Sodbusters (NPC Sodbusters get morale bonuses if they are defending their town or homesteads). Campesinos will be similar to them, but with a few changes to suit the culture.

Thanks one and all!

If the game has both campesinos and peones, then there's not much room for offence, except by those offended by history in general. There's no pleasing some people, of course.

For your purposes, I would say, for instance, that the Mexican farmers in the Magnificent Seven would be campesinos, for instance, not peones. Peones by definition would have social superiours whom they would expect to do the fighting for them, rather than vice-versa.

Mulopwepaul: That is an EXCELLENT point. Thank you putting it so plainly. Until you said that, I would have cast them as Peons, but you're absolutely right about them being campesinos.

BTW: You're dead on the money about the people offended by history in general! We've just accepted the fact that those people will never be in our demographic and, therefore, we don't spend time fretting about them.

Mex10mm,

Thanks!

When you wrote:

Peon=Peasant.
NO ofence.
Here in Mexico construction workers are called "albañiles" and the young apprentice "albañiles" are still called peones.

You saved me a long distance phone call to my Tía.

Gracias,

Glenn

In Spanish, it is just as offensive as peasant today, which is highly context dependent. But, in the era of which you speak, it would have been as offensive as nothing more than farm-hand or laborer. In fact, I think that I even had people in Mexico say that they were "peones".

As others have noted, it is different than campesino.

I suppose, really it would be less offensive than having slaves in an AWI game. But, it is history you are gaming. There are offensive things in history and gaming. When I my PCs found a ghoul raiding a child's grave, I am sure that it was offensive; but that was the drama. One of my most effective heroic situations!

"If I can have Mexican, Chinese, Mormon, and Amish Peons alike; no problem (IMO)."

Then what about the IRISH!

Famous words from Blazing Saddles: Olson Johnson: All right, we'll give some land to the s and the chinks, but we DON'T WANT THE IRISH.

link

I know I will get bleeped or Dog housed oh well!

I asked my sister once how to spell European.

She said y-o-u-'r-e a p-e-o-n.

JW

Interesting. I didn't know it was considered an offensive term at all. But I'm in Canada. I just thought it was the correct term foe, well…. peons. (And most of my games are in Mexico, so I have thousands of 25-28mm Mexicans mad at me.)

Live and learn.

It's specifically used in Legends of the Old West (Alamo book, page 77) in the Bandidos list. Henchmen section. Mexican Peons.