"Persians, Persians, Always Vendel" Topic

Painted Persians take pride of place,on Vendel homepage.
vendelminiatures.co.uk

Thankyou Jeff, not a lot of praise there. Amazingly we are often asked to supply horses on their own. There is nothing of course, stopping the painter from adding those little touches that you say are missing.The leopard blanket is reserved for Vendel Alexander's horse,otherwise the poor beastie would have been hunted to extinction.I would also suggest giving relief to the horse's nose by painting it in slightly different colour,as per real life.(It looks like you have picked a border reiver mount),for an ancient Macedonian. Historic records show that ancient horses were smaller,than the modern version,15 to sixteen hands I believe.There again Jeff, we have never totally agreed on history.Head shots are not the most flattering pic for any horse,I note your avoidance of such with the alternative painted pic.Your opinions I respect however. footnote- The raw metal shot of other manufacturers horses reinforces my defence of Vendel mounts.The vendel horses over the last two years,have been altered slightly to cover some of the points you have raised(noses in particular,perhaps we can still wooe you to the Vendel camp,who nose. LOL

The raw metal horse on the right, looks like it needs a good feed of oats.Would never support a child let alone a warrior. Still one man's meat…

Yes… point well taken…
I tried to delete this post after posting as I felt it was unneccessarily harsh…. Vendel puts out a decent range of figures and should be commended that you all try to complete their lines.

Many of my comments can be carried forward to any range of Alexandrian and Successsors in 28mm. The Foundry horses were displayed because they at least had the hardware, and trappings that the Vendel Alexander horse sports- and yes every model doesn't need a leapard skin-- still some blankets with toothed edging would be nice, and isn't something I 'want' to modify in this scale..

I was just in a rotten mood today because I was attending my Foundry and Vendel collection of phalangites and just holding my head in my hands because the lion's share of these do not have greaves…. why did I buy them 5 to 8 years ago.. well I pretended that I would find the time to add greaves to each of them…LOL! What an ambitious dream.

I will say that Vendel does have some of their phalangites with greaves, but these are somewhat high octane ones.. with fancy feathers and helmets… these will work for silver shields or elite types….

What I wanted was just the regulars with full kit-- and I look at my pile of hundreds of figures that need greaves- and I just laugh at myself- it will never happen….
I have time to paint now, but I don't have the ambition to model greaves.. oh well…

So when you put up your nod to the Persians I freaked… and it remided of all the little things that I would have to do after paying the 2 pounds sterling per figure with shipping…. and I just reckon thta's why you haven't seen my Vendel phalanx painted yet….. and for that matter you haven't seen my Saleh Foundry phalanx- because it has the same failure of attention to detail.

" Historic records show that ancient horses were smaller,than the modern version,15 to sixteen hands I believe.There again Jeff, we have never totally agreed on history."

It's not a matter of agreeing on history at all-- Vendel horses are ok, and stand out amongst a crop of mostly mediocre other models-- my criticism is the the riders are so big that THEY dwarf the horses… putting a Foundry rider on a Vendel horse (which I have done is some cases for Thracians) works out better to my eye.

Horses were smaller in antiquity than modern bred horses- there is no disagreement there, however the Persian Naisaians were especially prized for their size and stamina, are were Royal property beign handed out to kinsmen and as gifts to forign coruts. These became the "heavenly horses" highly prized in China… and the basis for the Cataphract when the Parthians took over the breeding grounds of these larger horses.
So history also supports that Persian horses were well bred and larger than Western breeds at the time.

"(It looks like you have picked a border reiver mount)"

Well that was what I got :) I guess all my Persian horses were of that kind and all my Companion horses are the same…

"There is nothing of course, stopping the painter from adding those little touches that you say are missing."

Well after a long hiatus from painting I have started to cull through my piles of lead… and I wanted to paint… and when I have to add bits and blanket details, and tie the horse's tails in a knot, and figure out how to hog their manes, and add forelock knot…. I start to think maybe that's too much work.

The most serious attempt to do nice Persian army horses was by Battlestandard- unfortunately they went the opposite
direction by making their horses the size of Percherons-- quite wrong, but then compounded by doing some very shoddy sculpts, with an occaisional nice figure.

Anyway I didn't really really want to 'go off' on Vendel as they are not the only culprits is the World of Classical minaitures that don't quite stop and smell the details..
OTOH it is up to consumer to decide what to buy and what to passover… and to be educated as to what is good or accurate or not.

It has been a long source of frustation that many of the figures in 28mm that support the Classical era do so with less attention to detail than privious ranges of 25mm figures which went out of their way to produce the details of AMPW, the Connelly books, but without the variety and clean molding that the new companies produce…

One thing I can state with a positive voice is that Vendel figures are cleanly cast and easy models to paint- that's why I do reccomend them (and have shown my efforts on the models I do like on AncientBattles.com), but when an independent modeler commissions as figure as beautiful as this:
link

This shows that attention to detail is still out there, and that modelers and wargamers can find quality if they dig for it….One can find qulity figures in Vendel's line- but one must dig for it… and when the company says "It's up to you to make the fine details, on your own"…. it makes me wonder why they produce 30mm figures, when they could simply do 15's….

LOL .. I'm such a beast!!

Anyway the bottom line is Vendel do some good figures and some that I have to hold my nose… and yes I have added greaves to some of them.. and yes someday they may get painted.. but they would have all been up on Ancientbattles long ago.. if they had paid attention to those details… that's my point, and thanks for the discussion.
Jeff Joans

Jeff Joans

------> That should be Jeff MOANS LOL!

(Yes… point well taken…
I tried to delete this post after posting as I felt it was unneccessarily harsh…. Vendel puts out a decent range of figures and should be commended that you all try to complete their lines.

Many of my comments can be carried forward to any range of Alexandrian and Successsors in 28mm. The Foundry horses were displayed because they at least had the hardware, and trappings that the Vendel Alexander horse sports- and yes every model doesn't need a leapard skin-- still some blankets with toothed edging would be nice, and isn't something I 'want' to modify in this scale..

I was just in a rotten mood today because I was attending my Foundry and Vendel collection of phalangites and just holding my head in my hands because the lion's share of these do not have greaves…. why did I buy them 5 to 8 years ago.. well I pretended that I would find the time to add greaves to each of them…LOL! What an ambitious dream.

I will say that Vendel does have some of their phalangites with greaves, but these are somewhat high octane ones.. with fancy feathers and helmets… these will work for silver shields or elite types….

What I wanted was just the regulars with full kit-- and I look at my pile of hundreds of figures that need greaves- and I just laugh at myself- it will never happen….
I have time to paint now, but I don't have the ambition to model greaves.. oh well…

So when you put up your nod to the Persians I freaked… and it remided of all the little things that I would have to do after paying the 2 pounds sterling per figure with shipping…. and I just reckon thta's why you haven't seen my Vendel phalanx painted yet….. and for that matter you haven't seen my Saleh Foundry phalanx- because it has the same failure of attention to detail.

" Historic records show that ancient horses were smaller,than the modern version,15 to sixteen hands I believe.There again Jeff, we have never totally agreed on history."

It's not a matter of agreeing on history at all-- Vendel horses are ok, and stand out amongst a crop of mostly mediocre other models-- my criticism is the the riders are so big that THEY dwarf the horses… putting a Foundry rider on a Vendel horse (which I have done is some cases for Thracians) works out better to my eye.

Horses were smaller in antiquity than modern bred horses- there is no disagreement there, however the Persian Naisaians were especially prized for their size and stamina, are were Royal property beign handed out to kinsmen and as gifts to forign coruts. These became the "heavenly horses" highly prized in China… and the basis for the Cataphract when the Parthians took over the breeding grounds of these larger horses.
So history also supports that Persian horses were well bred and larger than Western breeds at the time.

"(It looks like you have picked a border reiver mount)"

Well that was what I got :) I guess all my Persian horses were of that kind and all my Companion horses are the same…

"There is nothing of course, stopping the painter from adding those little touches that you say are missing."

Well after a long hiatus from painting I have started to cull through my piles of lead… and I wanted to paint… and when I have to add bits and blanket details, and tie the horse's tails in a knot, and figure out how to hog their manes, and add forelock knot…. I start to think maybe that's too much work.

The most serious attempt to do nice Persian army horses was by Battlestandard- unfortunately they went the opposite
direction by making their horses the size of Percherons-- quite wrong, but then compounded by doing some very shoddy sculpts, with an occaisional nice figure.

Anyway I didn't really really want to 'go off' on Vendel as they are not the only culprits is the World of Classical minaitures that don't quite stop and smell the details..
OTOH it is up to consumer to decide what to buy and what to passover… and to be educated as to what is good or accurate or not.

It has been a long source of frustation that many of the figures in 28mm that support the Classical era do so with less attention to detail than privious ranges of 25mm figures which went out of their way to produce the details of AMPW, the Connelly books, but without the variety and clean molding that the new companies produce…

One thing I can state with a positive voice is that Vendel figures are cleanly cast and easy models to paint- that's why I do reccomend them (and have shown my efforts on the models I do like on AncientBattles.com), but when an independent modeler commissions as figure as beautiful as this:
link

This shows that attention to detail is still out there, and that modelers and wargamers can find quality if they dig for it….One can find qulity figures in Vendel's line- but one must dig for it… and when the company says "It's up to you to make the fine details, on your own"…. it makes me wonder why they produce 30mm figures, when they could simply do 15's….

LOL .. I'm such a beast!!

Anyway the bottom line is Vendel do some good figures and some that I have to hold my nose… and yes I have added greaves to some of them.. and yes someday they may get painted.. but they would have all been up on Ancientbattles long ago.. if they had paid attention to those details… that's my point, and thanks for the discussion.
Jeff Jonas)

Always a pleasure to read your comments J.J.--Believe it or not,your guide lines are always noted, and when we can, acted upon.-The larger 28mm scale,seems to have been adopted by many popular manufacturers,and Vendel figures have come into fashion because of this.(understand your frustration, regarding the effect, this has had on your collection)'Bad moods' deserve a forum. Horses as stated have been tweaked,also, many agree with you about the ease of painting a Vendel model.May we long continue, to agree and disagree.Colin,Duncan,and Stephen,would, I am sure,wish me to pass on their 'best of British'.

Footnote. Many gaming collectors, want figures that look historically correct,paint easily,and are 'on the table'quickly. Guilding the lilly, is not part of their specification,the choice to add or (can I say) titivate rests with them.-Much detail is supplied on a Vendel model,but customization by painting, is often the attraction
for many professional and gaming painters.-Criticism, or praise, is best measured in what you see,not what you can't see.Your search for perfection does you justice Jeff,but leave room for the other guy.ie 'The table general'

"Your search for perfection does you justice Jeff,but leave room for the other guy"

I'm just whining….

The Squadron Signal book on Thermopylae got me in a frenzy of excitement for hoplites- and Persians.. but when I look at my collection few models excite me… the Vendel ones are fine and will "gitter done"… but there is a certain blandness to all ranges in 28mm scale-
maybe you'all can get motivated to do a set of generals and fancy Greeks with Ram's horn's in releif on their helmets, triple crests, raised relief or scale armor corslets, and other 'touches' that are too small in old school 25mm, but can be easily seen in the heroic scale of Vendel's ranges?

And yes I do go on about it :)
Jeff

With all respect Jeff, I don't think you should be too apologetic. A friend of mine ordered some of the Vendel Persian line and frankly, I was quite disappointed with what he received. The figures had considerable flash, mold lines were very evident, the riders and horses didn't fit well together etc… I compare this with an order of their orcs I got years back which were great. The Vendel Greek and Macedonian lines, IMHO, don't come close to Foundry in quality of design or production.

Always a friend of mine.Could have been a bad cast run,it happens.-The Greek and Macedonian lines have received high praise from all our customers,including those from the Greek homeland.Dealing with a customer at the present,who has been collecting for forty years,he states that the Greek collection, is the finest 'ever' in the market place. Pictures don't lie,go to website,or get the Wargames Illustrated for a real feast of eye, out this month.'Hell it grabs me to have to defend something so good.' (Cant help it got say it,''ET TU BRUTUS''.

I agree that the Vendel horses are not great, and I too find the figures too 'bulky' in build to mix well with others.
It's a shame, because they are nice sculpts and paint up well and have plenty of character in other respects.

Whilst Vendel do paint up well, I'd echo the comments on the Vendel horses.

I do wish Steve Saleh had carried on with the Persian range he started at Foundry; I really like the few figures he did. Crusader will be bringing a couple of packs of Persians, shortly, which I await with interest, and Artizan promised a new Saleh range a while back.

Simon