"what if campaigns." Topic

outside of the orthodox historical facts of the napoleonic wars i have often wondered the impact of different command decisions and the results. 2 that come to mind..A) if the british had instead of walcheren and so late in the 1809 war gone to say the trieste/fiume region and hooked up with the austrian army at the beginning of the campaign. B) if the prussians had entered the fray in 1805. so many others. also post napo fighting between the smaller german states etc. anyone ever done these on the table or wished to?

Another interesting what if could involve the British Units that were based in Germany in 1813. If these had been used in a more agressive manner than it gives us a chance to play British versus French outside of the Penninsular and Waterloo campaign. Not too many ridges to hide behind in the North German plains!

The Brits with Austria in 1809 is a scenario I want to do one day, so yeah, I thought about it; I've always wanted to paint a British army one day, but I have no interest in either the Peninsula or the 1815 campaign.

I'm one of those who probably enjoys What if's as much if not more than actual Historical battles.

i agree charles. what a handsome combo on the field. I, like you, have no interest in the peninsula or waterloo.

An army of white & red would be, indeed, beautiful!

Plus, I believe there's tons of ways to do what if's with Brits in Central Europe (Sam Mustafa's Disconcert of Europe, which pits an French-Anglo-Austria alliance vs a Prussian/Russian alliance in 1814 comes to mind).

I still have my French to paint for now, but it's only a matter of time…

I have had a couple of campaigns and also some what if battles in both 1805/6, 1809 and 1815. Easy to jiggle with history and the Wagram order of battle can always be squeezed onto a 12 x 6 table,

Tally Ho!

We did the "Disconcert of Europe" game a couple of years ago at… Cold Wars, I think, and it was a blast. We had 14 players, and the armies represented about half a million men. A very near-run thing, as the Brits came to the Austrian rescue in just the nick of time.

Another fun one involved Prussia getting into the war in late 1805. We did a sort of pre-game "matrix game" of decision-points for both sides, in which the French opted to cut through neutral Prussian territory, and the Russians didn't, thus swaying the Prussians into the alliance in time to get a corps to Austerlitz. (But with the Russians being tardy as a result.)

We did a 1816 campaign based on a break down of Metternich's
Congress of Vienna. In essence this is a Russo / Prussian alliance facing off against Royalist France, Austria and Britain.

mjc

I have often considered a 'what if' scenario. 'What if Napoleon had managed to get his army across the channel in 1805….' So you would have the British sans Wellington and those infernal riflemen.

Personally I prefer 'What If' battles and campaigns to historical ones simply because there are more options.

Regarding your first scenario I posted a message a few months ago enquiring about an 1809 Austro-British link-up and was pleased so many other people had considered that scenario too.

Ideally what I'd like to play someday is a 'Grand Battle of Vienna/Aspern-Essling/Wagram'

The breakdown being as follows:

The entire Austrian Army
The British 'Walcheren' Army
The Brunswick troops

VS

Napoleon's Army of the Rhine,
Eugene's Army of Italy with Marmont's Corps,
Poniatowski's Poles,
Jerome's Army,
Louis' Army.

The terrain for this area is well known as are OOB's so the scenario shouldn't present too much of a problem.

I may even throw in the Prussians on Austria's side too as the King of Prussia had initially promised 80,000 troops to Austria's aid. I'll have to wait and see!

The Napoleonic Wars

I'd just like to add that I'm sorry to see so many people put off by 1815. The problem with the 1815 campaign is that too many people just think of that campaign as being just Quatre Bras, Ligny, Waterloo and Wavre. There are of course many possibilities outside of Belgium.

Firstly,

You can pit Murat's Neapolitans against Bianchi's Austrians, Modenese, Parmesans and Tuscans.

THE BATTLE OF TOLENTINO(The anniversary of which is today!) or perhaps other battles of the Neapolitan War such as Occhiobello, Carpi, Ronco etc.

link

Secondly,

Numerous scenarios can be conjured using Napoleon's covering armies. From the historical battles of LA SOUFFEL, CONFLANS, and L'HOPITAL to some 'What If' Scenarios like the ones below:

THE BATTLE OF PARIS and LYONS
We all know that instead of crossing the frontier into the then Kingdom of the Netherlands, Napoleon's other option was holding Paris and Lyons.

For Paris: Napoleon's Armee du Nord, Rapp's Armee du Rhin and Lamarque's Armee de l'Ouest versus the armies of Wellington (with his Danish and Hanseatic troops), Blucher and Kleist, Barclay de Tolly and Scwarzenberg.

Terrain shouldn't be a problem as there are plenty of Paris 1814 maps kicking about as a well as some 1815 ones. As for OOB – the allies can be found in Plotho on google books and Lamarque's on Galicia and the napoleon series archives.

For Lyons: Suchet's Armee des Alpes (with maybe Lecourbe's Armee du Jura too as Napoleon planned) versus Frimont's Army of Upper Austria.

Frimont's OOB is also in Plotho.

THE BATTLE OF HUNINGUE
Lecourbe's Armee du Jura with Barbanegre in the fortress behind him versus Bachmann's Swiss Army and maybe some Austrians if not being used for the Battle of Paris.

THE BATTLE OF TOULON
Brune's Armee du Var versus Bianchi's Army of Naples and Hudson Lowe's British troops. Bianchi's OOB is also in Plotho.

THE BATTLES OF TOULOUSE AND BORDEAUX
Historically, in late August two Spanish armies actually crossed in to France. One army under Castanos reaching Perpignan, the other army under O'Donnell (Conde La Bisbal) passing Bidassoa. However, these were without Portuguese troops however. None in fact were mobilised for action against France but some were to be sent to Brazil.

For Toulouse: Decaen's Armee des Pyrenees Occidentales versus Castanos' Spanish troops.

For Bordeaux: Clauzel's Armee des Pyrenees Orientales versus O'Donnell's (Conde La Bisbal's) Spanish troops.

So you see there are many possibilities for 1815, many of which can have a historical basis. Many of your miniatures I'm sure can be used in these battles so your Austrians, Russians, Bavarians etc. won't be sitting idle in 1815.

Regards

The Napoleonic Wars

What if Cathcart's 1805 Hannoverian campaign hadn't been aborted? British troops at Jena/Auerstadt in 1806?

Some of the colonial campaigns offer interesting and unexpected possibilities. Another gamer told me recently he had done a Horseshoe Bend scenario at a convention with the British supporting the Creeks. This is not totally without historical antecedent, since both British and Creek forces were allied with the Spanish at the (Second) Battle of Pensacola, although it ignores a certain logistical impracticality.

Rick

Donald Graves' recently published book "Fix Bayonets" has a chapter describing the Anglo-Russian campaign in Holland in 1799. Since there were 40,000 British and Russian troops involved (against 21,000 French and French allies, under Brune) there are possibilities for unusual match-ups with some reasonably sized forces.

Rick

Way back in the day I had a small Ottoman army. Aside from Russians and French, I tossed them against an Austrain army once and had a few frays with my Brits. Wish I hadn't sold them now.

My American 1812 army took up residene in Oz a few years back. Another pity – mostly OOP Foundry. I pitched them against some French once, for a bizarre reason that now eludes me. Didn't seem right however.

If Napoleon hadn't sold Louisiana to the U.S. it's conceivable there could have been a fight over New Orleans between the Americans and French.

i also ponder the usage of the restored house of savoy army of piedmont (never seen them on a field or even know their uniforms) and of course my favorite the army of the restored hesse kassel complete with being force to wearing their hair a la queue and all in 1814 upon restoration. seems the kurfurst just loved the look even with the latter uniforms. a peculiar man. i believe they would be the only army in europe who wore their hair like that in those days. i still think all those german armies and others would look great for a war in post 1815. they were bound to have had territorial disagreements. just a wish.

I actually have a poll related to this question on my blgo right now. Please drop by and vote.

leadwellington.blogspot.com

Note to previous visitors: the name of the blog has changed, but the URL remains the same – didn't want to mess up anyone's links.

blgo = blog, of course.

Weissenwolf,

Thanks for the topic by the way. I was considering posting a topic of the exact same nature myself and I'm pleased to see someone else has considered 'What If' campaigns too.

The Piedmontese-Sardinians did infact mobilise and were involved in the combat of 1815. A Piedmontese-Sardinian Corps of between 12 and 15,000 men under General Latour were attached to Frimont's 'Army of Upper Italy' and some of their troops took part in the action at Grenoble.

In addition to that force were D'Osasca's Piedmontese-Sardinian troops forming the garrison of Nice which were also mobilised. Please note however that D'Osasca DID NOT command the Army of Naples. This is a common mistake which I've seen in a few books. Bianchi commanded the 'Army of Naples' that at first beat Murat and then (when bolstered and re-organised) invaded France and operated in the Var in co-operation with D'Osasaca's Piedmontese-Sardinians and Lord Exmouth and Hudson Lowe's British troops.

The following websites in Italian should provide you with your 1814/1815 Piedmontese-Sardinan uniform and flag needs:

collezioni-f.it/sard/01.html

link

There is also a helpful article giving an Army List and organisation of the Piedmontese-Sardinian troops of 1815 in English on The Napoleon Series website:

link

And while we're at it we may as well take a glimpse at the troops of Modena:

link

link

link

My research is still ongoing regarding the troops of the Grand Duchy of Tuscany and the Duchy of Parma but as soon as I have the information needed (Army Lists, Uniforms etc.) I shall post it.

Regarding your 'What If' post 1815 Germans…

In a very early edition of First Empire Magazine, there was a 'What If' battle between Bavaria and Wurttemberg about posession of an island on a river famous for its beer. This scenario was called 'The Battle of the Beer' 1815. So you see, others too have considered your idea and have actually played such a game.

King Regards

The Napoleonic Wars

KING Regards???

lol

thanks nap wars. especially for the kings regards lol. look forward to speaking with you more often. Les