"25/28mm figures prices" Topic

"Anything (ANYTHING) produced in smaller quantities from Character figures to hand made furniture is going to cost more as the initial set up is more per unit than something mass produced"

Disagree. The initial setup for making a miniature figurine consists of:
1) Sculpting
2) Mould making

Sculpting, when done in house, not by contracted sculptors, costs only time and materials.
Mould making costs a very small percentage of even a small production run of figures.

While your statememt is technically true, the actual costs are so low as to make any "markup" on short run figure ranges unnecessary. Bear in mind that spin casting machines do not produce hundreds of figures at a time. A typical spin cast mould has 10 or 12 different figures in it. Moulds can be swapped on the machine in less than a minute. I have been at the production unit of a UK figure manufacturer. Purchasing figures at their trade counter, if they are out of stock of a particular figure, you can wait while they spin up the mould and cast them for you.

Figure manufacturing in metal is a cottage industry and operates on an on-demand basis – that's why our manufacturers in the UK go slightly manic in the couple of weeks before Salute casting up stock for the show!

Mike: I would respectfully suggest that you don't know half as much about the production and retail procedures of modern miniatures companies as you might previously have thought.

"FYI: Hasslefree is me and Sally, mostly Sally, working from our home (industrial units cost money by the way) and we have no permanent employees (which cost money too, incidentally) to take up any slack if we're ill or unable to work."

FYI: GZG is Jon Tuffley and one employee. They operate from a small industrial unit. GZG is Jon's livelihood. By your own statement, then, GZG's costs are considerably higher than yours. Yet they can produce figures for less than a third of the price of yours …

"Ripping people off" implies charging more than the product is worth. Whether a figure is worth £3.50 GBP (as others have said) depends on how much a customer wants that particular figure, whether they like the sculpt and whether they can buy a similar figure from another manufacturer at a cheaper price. This is standard marketing theory.

I presume when you set up your business you did a Single Product Break-Even Forecast that generated your £3.50 GBP price per figure?

"Mike: I would respectfully suggest that you don't know half as much about the production and retail procedures of modern miniatures companies as you might previously have thought."

Really? Please elaborate.

Really? Please elaborate.

Why bother? You have your opinions, I have mine. Mine are based on my day to day life experiences.

And, yes, I know Jon's set up and I know for a fact that his situation is far different to ours.

IMO "Ripping people off" implies charging significantly more than you have to for something. We don't.

So, once again I ask; Do you think we are ripping people off?

"Why bother? You have your opinions, I have mine. Mine are based on my day to day life experiences."

Your previous statement implies that I either do not understand or have incorrect information about the processes and procedures involved in making miniatures. I was asking you to correct my apparent misconceptions.

"And, yes, I know Jon's set up and I know for a fact that his situation is far different to ours."

So, how come his prices are lower? Different cost model perhaps?

"IMO "Ripping people off" implies charging significantly more than you have to for something."

You can charge what you feel you have to. If another manufacturer can produce a similar product at a cheaper price then the customers will decide who is ripping whom off.

You can charge what you feel you have to.

Correction: We charge what we have to to make any kind of living.

So, how come his prices are lower? Different cost model perhaps?

Different personal circumstances and different production set up.

If another manufacturer can produce a similar product at a cheaper price then the customers will decide who is ripping whom off.

Once more; Do you think Hasslefree are ripping people off?

Message deleted due to p's and q's :D

"Different personal circumstances and different production set up."

Must be very different to generate such a price differential. However, without more detail, I cannot comment further.

"Do you think Hasslefree are ripping people off?"

I will not buy your products if I can get similar figures cheaper elsewhere. Yes, I have looked at your ranges and I have decided that they are too expensive for my pocket. Your existing customers will of course have a different view.

You haven't answered my question. Do you think we are ripping people off? Yes or No.

"Do you think we are ripping people off? Yes or No."

I have no way of knowing. I quote Pictor's Studio:
"rip-off n. slang 1. The act of ripping off; an act of stealing or cheating. 2 Anything dishonest, illegal or exploitative."

I am fairly sure that you are not stealing, cheating, dishonest or illegal.
However, only YOU can say whether your prices are exploitative or not.

O.K. Well, in that case they're not exploitative.

But you still haven't answered. You've said that companies charging over $5 USD a mini are ripping people off.

In your opinion, are we ripping people off? If the answer is "Yes" would you be prepared to have your opinion changed?

Not to hijack my own thread or to divert from Mike's Versus Kev's understanding of production differences discussion, which has been interesting to the point where trench lines were dug:

"…Although you say "Given I can't paint worth a darn", I presume you are talking about unpainted figures…"

made me start thinking about (again) about buying painted figures but that led me back to the original question which was about 'average' prices for 25/28mm figures not differences in production costs and drives them.

Needless to say, costs of mailing and insurance for someone else to paint figures would have to be factored in if I went that route, increasing the price of the figures significantly. In one case an inquiry about painting 1/350 and 1/700 plastic aircraft basically doubled the price of the model. Not that I disagree with the cost {a workman is due/worth his wages thing} but unless it's a significant PC type situation or it's a camo pattern/unit or command symbol I can't reasonably attempt it cuts in half (in this cse) the number of figures I would be able to field for a game scenario. If you are out there, Chris, I haven't forgot you.

Gracias,

Glenn

Anyone ever done a poll on how much people would pay for "grunt" type figures at particular scaleper figure? "Character/leader" figures? Stagecoaches/wagons/vehicles? (This started in the Old West section.) Horses/animals? Iam getting the idea the range is pretty wide at 25mm and will have to do some research again at other scales.

I have learned a lot about this question from everyone
s answers. Thank you for your time.

Gracias,

Glenn

What I actually said was:
"I would say that anything more than $5.00 USD USD a figure is a rip off."

I would say = IMO. In other words, I would not pay more than £2.50 GBP a figure (and would even think seriously at more than £2.00). I do not see how anyone can justify higher prices than that, given the fact that other manufacturers charge a lot less. Clearly you do, but that is your business.

"In your opinion, are we ripping people off?"

Dunno. You tell me. As I have said before whether such high prices constitute a rip-off only the producer can know, since customers are not privy to their profit margins.

"Would you be prepared to have your opinion changed?"

If you are prepared to tell us what your profit margin per figure is then maybe.

Perhaps we can shelve the term "rip-off". It just doesn't seem appropriate in this context. For such a tiny industry making non-essential goods, I'm sure the manufacturers are much more dependent on consumers than vice versa. Nobody is making you buy such and such miniature at extortionist prices. You pay what you want to pay, at least if you have patience.

Personally, I am a cheap you-know-what. My gold standard price for a 28mm figure (foot) is $1, and I am willing to spend $2 USD per if need be. I only started in this scale about four months ago and have a small collection of about 125+ figures from various manufacturers (GB, Dixon, OG, etc.). THe vast majority have been obtained at my preferred price of $1 USD and I am very happy with the sculpts. Admittedly, I also have a few less than ideal figures in the bunch that I will probably turn into casualties. But I haven't included these in my totals. These are about 50 figures, most of which were obtained gratis, tossed into the package with an Ebay purchase. So, my average price paid is quite small.

All that said, now that my collection is started, I feel like I can cherry pick for new enticing figures to round things out, so to speak. For these, I'm willing to go a bit higher, say $3 USD or so. But I'm still primarily looking for bargains.

"Must be very different to generate such a price differential."

People buy figures from Hasslefree. But they buy platoons from GZG. This changes the cost of sculpting when it's spread across more figures.

"Sculpting, when done in house, not by contracted sculptors, costs only time and materials."

Time is not even very cheap to just use up. Even at minimum wage, you can earn a fiver an hour. Five hours is a quick sculpt (as I understand it) but that's 25 quid at unskilled labour rates.. I doubt HF figures are taking five hours and I doubt that skills of that level trade out for minimum wage.

HF might not have to *PAY* the money right now, but it is time that isn't being used, say, doing 100-200 quid sculpts for other people instead.

{Caveat; I'm not a sculptor. But I have run businesses.}

To me, the original question only makes sense as a budgetary exercise. Not that this is bad: I routinely ry to get an idea of cost and painting time involved before being sucked into a new period. I inevitably find I need things I han't anticipated, but that's neither another story.

Given that, I'd say All Over the Skye's original asumption of 2-2.5 USD for a foot figure is not too bad. Particularly for a period like the Old West, things will vary. If you need a generic school marm to stand in front of the one room schoolhouse or herd the children to safety, then you can use the Old Glory wagon train lady. If you need Mary Steenburgen for a game based on Back To the Future, Part III, then you'll have to go to the Hasslefree Old West line (yes, I know, you haven't started that yet--oh, by the way, this isn't intended to pick on you, Kev, your company has just come up as an example earlier). One will bring you in under budget for that item, the other will have you over budget. It will all average out.

I don't see either as a rip off, I think you're getting what you pay for.

I lack the skills, the time, the opportunity, and frankly, the interest to undertake some sort of financial analysis of different companies to see who is eating gruel huddled around a few coals in the stove and who is plotting to have a new Maserati to park in front of his villa in the south of France.

As for painting skills, I am a bit intimidated by the Hasslefree figure currently hiding on my painting desk, amongst the OG, Foundry, and other figures. It will never come out looking like the display figures at the Hasslefree website. But even in my hands, it is likely to come out looking prety sharp!

Grelber

"Time is not even very cheap to just use up. Even at minimum wage, you can earn a fiver an hour. Five hours is a quick sculpt (as I understand it) but that's 25 quid at unskilled labour rates.."

True, except that in house sculptors do not usually pay themselves an hourly wage, so you cannot have a cost for the time spent sculpting (at least not one that will appear in the business accounts).

"In your opinion, are we ripping people off?"

Dunno. You tell me.

That's not an answer, is it?

Never mind. Sally will be along shortly with some facts and figures.

Have a look. You don't have to register on the forum just to read the topic.

link

Would love to see how this ends, but I'm heading off to RECON now, (where, BTW, a hot Hasslefree nekid girl will be hidden in one of my Old West Mexican buildings as an objective for the gamers) :)

Argue on, mates!

;)

"True, except that in house sculptors do not usually pay themselves an hourly wage, so you cannot have a cost for the time spent sculpting (at least not one that will appear in the business accounts)."

So you are saying, essentially, that business owners do not pay themselves?

I can tell you that I have costs associated with my being alive, food, water, shelter. With the shelter comes electricity, gas, telephone etc.

I have a cost for time spent painting so sculptors must have a cost for time spent sculpting.

This is like the idiotic argument that because the materials that make a drug up only cost $.40 USD then the drug should only cost slightly more than that.

It misses the millions and millions spent on research, preclinical trials, clinical trials, advertising and so on. Anyone that has run a business should understand this stuff. Even people that haven't should have been taught this stuff in school.

but besides the time that he puts in there is a variation based on quality.

People have different talent levels and can command different prices based on those talent levels. If you are good at your job ideally you get paid more.

Kev is a pretty good sculptor, he should be paid well for what is a rare talent. His sculpts are better than those of others, they warrant more money.

And pigbear is absolutely correct about the term "rip off." It is entirely inappropriate. So is the term "exploitative." How could the cost of a miniature be exploitative? It isn't something you need. You either buy it or you don't. You'll manage without it. You aren't being exploited if you pay 550 quid for a GW Reaver Titan. Hopefully you looked at how much money you have, how much you want the Titan and made a decision based on that. There aren't goons going around forcing you to buy this stuff.

"So you are saying, essentially, that business owners do not pay themselves?"

Yes.
Quote from Hasslefree's link above:
"Now also don't forget that Kev actually sculpted the Tigress so we didn't have to pay him any sculpting fees"

"So is the term "exploitative.""

Not my word. It came from the definition of "rip off" you yourself supplied. And anyway Hasslefree and I have agreed that the term does not apply in this case.

Pictors Studio has summed up my view on this. I want to add that Kevin is indeed a very talented sculptor in demand. He also has a history of sculpting for other companies. In order to replace the income he could be making taking commissions from other companies the sculpting fees for his work must be factored in.

Everybody knows I don't eat or need a house to sleep in.

Just because I don't have to invoice myself for every miniature I make, doesn't mean I don't NEED some kind of income from the miniature.

The argument has become too extensive to really jump into at this point but there were two distinctive points that leapt out at me.

The first is someone made the assertation that GZG figures are on a par quality wise with Hasslefree figures. I can only assume that was some kind of in joke I didn't get. GZG are good, for the price. Hasslefree are good, full stop.

Second was the phrase 'only their time' in regards to in house sculptors. Uhm, what's the difference? If sculpting is contracted out then you pay for that sculptor's time. If you do it in house you are paying 'your own' time, which assuming you have the same skill level as an out of house sculptor should be worth exactly the same. You can probably afford to pay yourself a little less because of working conditions, working hours, no stress deadlines etc. but not much.
When you're sculpting for your own stuff you aren't earning money any other way.

I think people who are buying historical figures and army based 25mm games etc seem to be completely out of touch with the concept of the individual and squad based financial mechanics of the fantasy and sci-fi market.
Hasslefree are on the cheap end of that scale, quality wise I can't think of anyone consistently cheaper at all.

I love you, Artyfarty :)

Another quote from Hasslefree's link above:
"and we needed 20 spins at £4.27 GBP each to get a 'starting stock'."

Aha! Now I see where the different cost model comes in. You are using contract casting services at £4.27 GBP a spin? And only 4 models per spin. No wonder your costs are higher.

I asked you to tell us about your profit margin and you have very kindly done so. I therefore can now agree that your prices are not a rip-off.

One thing puzzles me though. You web site lists HFL404 Sabre-tooth tigress (metal) at £5.00. Is this the same model discussed in the production costs or another one?

Who needs a Current Affairs Board when we have people pull facts and figures from their ass in insignificant volatile arguments?

Mike. We had a metal price hike since Sally worked those numbers out.

NYC, LOL! Whats the matter, a bit grumpy today? :)

Isn't everyone off for the rest of the week to game at RECON? Me? Not a care inj the World 'cept for getting my GF to hurry up so we can leave!

"I can only assume that was some kind of in joke I didn't get. GZG are good, for the price. Hasslefree are good, full stop."

An interesting comment considering that Kev White sculpted a number of GZG's figures.

"Mike. We had a metal price hike since Sally worked those numbers out."

OK. That makes sense, then. Thanks.

"An interesting comment considering that Kev White sculpted a number of GZG's figures."

Kev has also sculpted for numerous other companies and while I've yet to see an awful mini they range in quality from good to great much like most other top sculptors.
A sculptor's quality both increases with time / practice 'and' time spent on a sculpt. My educated guess ( I've been offered similar deals from sculptors myself) is if a sculptor is paid £50.00 GBP for a sculpt then he'll put in half the time he would spend on a sculpt he was being paid £100.00 GBP for. When somebody commissions a sculpt then they already know that.

Grelber,

I can only say, "THANK YOU" for your words. Summed it up well.

I did not envision this going so far afield (and with such…enthusiasm…of discussion.)

Artemis,

For what I envision for my Sci-Fi, Kev's artistically wonderful sculpts simply don't work for me at all whereas GZG's sculpts (and I don't care who made them) are very close to perfect matches, some more then others.

Back to the Eye of the Beholder thing…

Gracias,

Glenn

While 'the eye of the beholder' argument does hold merit there is certainly an objective standard to be seen also.

If I wanted 25mm cheap sci-fi grunts then I'd look at GZG instead of Hasslefree too. If I was buying a hundred marines I'd look around for the best quality / cost ratio for that amount and GZG may well be that company.

If I wanted 1 very well sculpted figure I wouldn't even bother opening GZG's site, and that's not a slight against GZG I wouldn't open 'any' of the various cheaper army based manufacturer's sites. They simply aren't as good as the boutique manufacturers.

"…I think people who are buying historical figures and army based 25mm games etc seem to be completely out of touch with the concept of the individual and squad based financial mechanics of the fantasy and sci-fi market…"

I do have to comment – GZG seems to fit that description, No? Or are you using the term differently then I think you are? Stargrunt is squad based for game mechanics.

How many figures go on the table for a game like Stargrunt or other rules/games? At a platoon based game maybe 60 total? Since I don't play army based games (historical or other wise) with 25mm I can't compare them. Long Live 6mm!

And just a thought, priced 1/300th aircraft lately? For larger modern games I find for several reasons that 1/600th are more practical. And yes, for me, price is a very big factor in that arena.

Anyway, I think I have my answer. Thanks to all who answered it.

Gracias,

Glenn

"If I wanted 1 very well sculpted figure I wouldn't even bother opening GZG's site"

Implying that NONE of GZG's (extensive) range are "very well sculpted"?

"They simply aren't as good as the boutique manufacturers."

That is, of course, only your opinion.

"…If I wanted 1 very well sculpted figure…"

Okay, now I think I understand.

That would apply to situations where a very limited number of figures (say 1 – RPG PC level- to 6 – Old West games – per player) are on the board.

Gracias,

Glenn

"Implying that NONE of GZG's (extensive) range are "very well sculpted"?"

It's not so much implying it as saying it flat out. none of them would win a sculpting competition or would likely be picked as a subject for a high quality painting competition.

There's no insult intended here. Lots of companies understand their target market and aim directly at them.

And yes it is only my opinion. However I would suggest that it's backed up by simply having working eyes.

I own a store in a poor area and I stock some of the cheap and cheerful ranges. A number of my customers simply can't afford to pad out armies filled with beautifully sculpted character miniatures so are willing to put up with the lower quality for the lower price. They don't ever try and convince anyone that the quality isn't lower though.

""Implying that NONE of GZG's (extensive) range are "very well sculpted"?"
"It's not so much implying it as saying it flat out."

Hmmm … I wonder what Jon Tuffley would have to say about that?

"I own a store in a poor area"

Surely Wales isn't that poor?

"Just because I don't have to invoice myself for every miniature I make, doesn't mean I don't NEED some kind of income from the miniature."

Depending on your current tax/earnings situation, it's not actually unreasonable for you to do exactly that. This can be done to allow you to move paying tax into previous tax years allowing the use of cheaper tax bands and tax allowances in periods when you don't actually have enough money to use them. Instead of paying you when the company has no money it can just rack up zero-interest loans.

If you do it right, you can pay tax at the most convenient rate, maximising the use of your allowances and rate bands and then convert loans back into cash only when you need to draw money out of the company..

{Caveat; I am not an accountant. (I'm only qualified as a bookkeeper). But we do have three actual accountants in our immediate families..}

All this over the cost of a miniature. Imagine if someone asked me for a terrain quote…!

"Hmmm … I wonder what Jon Tuffley would have to say about that?"

I would assume he's quite aware of it.

"Surely Wales isn't that poor?"

Of course Wales is a thriving boom town of a country filled with rich industrialists and has no poor areas at all.

I would hazard to say that there are tens of thousands of people in the world that pay well over $10 USD for a single miniature. In fact, they are probably featured in most armies of that manufacturer. One need only look to the largest wargaming company in the world – GW.

"I would assume he's quite aware of it."

You've said it to him then?

"Of course Wales is a thriving boom town of a country filled with rich industrialists and has no poor areas at all."

No more than other parts of the UK.

Mike, thanks for conceding that we don't seek to rip people off :)

The point is though, maybe other miniatures companies charging more than $5 USD per miniature are in a similar position to ourselves? I think a blanket "$5 or more = Ripoff" is possibly a bit narrow minded.

Anyway, it's almost a shame you conceded the point. My next step would have been to invite you over so you could see our set-up for yourself, and is what I meant when I was asking you if you were open to conversion :)

"You've said it to him then?"

Yes, when I said 'assume' what I really meant was 'definitely know because I just went around to his house and informed of a blindingly obvious fact he already knows'. Simple typo really.

"No more than other parts of the UK."

What on Earth are you talking about? I said I have a store in a poor area and you first have told me Wales isn't that poor and now are claiming it's no more or less poor than the rest of the UK. What has either of those things got to do with me being in a poor area?

Do you know what the word 'area' means? Do you think that somehow my store personally services the 8 odd thousand square miles of Wales? Would you prefer it if I said 'I have a store in a poor 20 square mile area of an otherwise financially solvent country'?

""…I would hazard to say that there are tens of thousands of people in the world that pay well over $10 USD USD for a single miniature. In fact, they are probably featured in most armies of that manufacturer. One need only look to the largest wargaming company in the world – GW…"

Hi-jack alert!

Does GW sell to literally 10's of 1,000's of gamers??? Or is this (completely understandable) hyperbole? I must admit that I never thought there were 10's of 1,000's of war gamers in the world! I always thought of our passion as a smaller group but I admit I have never seen a census of war gamers.