"25/28mm figures prices" Topic

Okay, it's a long time since I bought large numbers of 25/28mm figures (hint my first purchases cost 25 to 50 cents per foot figure and double for mounted) and most of my recent figures have been Ebay (until this wee.)

Getting ready to run a GUTSHOT game for a local convention I started looking at figures for "the future" and wanted feedback from others on TMP.

I guess I see the GZG figures as baseline (Stargrunt Indonesian Commonwealth figures coming along…) at circa $2 USD plus a fraction (in catalogue 1 GBP) for foot.

Assume Mounted figures cost roughly twice the cost of foot figures. Also assume that profit and packing costs is built into the cost. For an Old Glory set of 2 foot and 2 mounted figures it costs $14.50 USD which on my assumptions is $4 USD for two foot and $8 USD for two mounted figures which equals $12. USD Assuming there is a more metal in horse I guess I should push the cost of mounted up to $5.25 USD each.

All that as reasonable assumptions, let's proceed to my question.

Given I can't paint worth a darn (hence my 6mm preference) and I prefer cleanly cast playing quality figures and not museum collector figures – what price range for a 25/28mm figure should I deem "reasonable" as I add Mexicans, Indians, Female gunfighters (yeah, a little fantasy,) and townspeople to my collection?

I have cross posted to the lists where there is a fairly reasonable to good chance I will buy 25/28mm figures in the next 1 -5 years.

Gracias,

Glenn

Quick addendum,

PLEASE, Please, please, This is a "NO Ranting Zone" for this thread, okay.

Gracias,

Glenn

Although you say "Given I can't paint worth a darn", I presume you are talking about unpainted figures?

25mm/28mm figures range from 0.86p to £2.00 GBP in the UK. That's roughly $1.70 USD to $4.00. Mounted figures normally work out roughly twice the price of foot, sometimes a bit less, sometimes a bit more depending on the manufacturer.

For a cowboy game the figs will be a touch more expensive than massed infantry, you can expect. I wouldn't hesitate to pay $4 USD to $8 USD a figure for foot.

Now you can also get a bag of 15 OG cowboys on foot for about $15 USD before the discount. So that is the other option. If you aren't into the top of the line stuff for a skirmish game then these won't set you back much.

"For a cowboy game the figs will be a touch more expensive than massed infantry,"

Why should that be so? I have not found it to be the case at all.

"I wouldn't hesitate to pay $4.00 USD USD to $8.00 USD USD a figure for foot."

I would say that anything more than $5 USD a figure is a rip off.

It should be so because people aren't going to buy 600 cowboys the way they might buy 600 Macedonians. They typically want all different poses for their cowboys.

How do you define rip-off? I've paid $17 USD and even $25 USD for a single figure before and have been quite satisfied. How could it possibly be a rip-off if I knew what I was buying and got what I wanted?

rip-off n. slang 1. The act of ripping off; an act of stealing or cheating. 2 Anything dishonest, illegal or exploitative.

"It should be so because people aren't going to buy 600 cowboys the way they might buy 600 Macedonians. They typically want all different poses for their cowboys."

Doesn't seem to be a problem for the manufacturers from whom I have purchased cowboy figures – or other skirmish figures for that matter. Since it costs the same to produce each figure, I see no reason why a manufacturer should charge more for one than the other.

"How do you define rip-off?"

Charging more than the figure is realistically worth on the open market. $25 USD for a single figure? What was it, cast in solid silver?

I agree with Pictors. The western sculpts cost more, likely because they don't produce as many. You only need one fat gunslinger, not 80. I usually see stuff in the $4-5 range for foot and $8 USD for cavalry. I bet Murphy or Mmitchell have some good recommendations.

Old Glory and Blue Moon seem to have some affordable options.

"The western sculpts cost more, likely because they don't produce as many. "

Dixon Miniatures Napoleonics:
link
£0.95 GBP per foot figure

Dixon Miniatures Old West:
link
£0.95 GBP per foot figure

- EXACTLY the same price. Sorry guys your argument doesn't hold water. If one manufacturer can offer them at the same price then so can all the others. Otherwise they are ripping you off. As I said before, it's not the quantity sold that makes a difference but how many times you spin up the mould in the casting machine. The production cost is the same regardless of the target market (mass wargame or skirmish).

All Over the Skye

If you want to save money and get amix of different type old West cowboys and future figures, then I would suggest you consider joining the Old Glory Army – especially if you are thinking about getting back into 25mm figures.

The Old Glory Army (which is a $50.00 USD membership fee for the year), will allow you a 40% discount on Cowboys from the West Wind Cowboy Wars line, the Old Glory Pony Wars Line (which has a nice amount of Western Wagons), Blue Moon line of Cowboys and western figures, the Crusader line of Cowboys, as well as all the Western Buildings and asccessies in the Old Glory Shipyard line. Plus, Old Glory will be adding another line in the near future that you can use the Old Glory army card on that will have Western figurers.

I agree that the best prices for Western figures are to be had from Old Glory.

Foundry does nice, but expensive figures.
And in 15mm peter pig do a nice range.

Personally I have been using 1;72 (20mm) plastics, and cardstock buildings from Fiddlers green for my Western games.

"The Old Glory Army (which is a $50.00 USD USD membership fee for the year), will allow you a 40% discount on Cowboys"

While the Old Glory Army scheme is great if you are buying lots of figures, if you are only wanting small numbers for skirmish games it does not necessarily make economic sense. You would have to buy more than $125 USD worth of figures to realise any saving at all in the year.

What Miniatureships said … And whats this about a new line to be added that has Western Figures!? More stuff for me to use my card on – don't you guys get enough of my money!

That isn't true and here is the proof:

If I have to pay someone to sculpt 30 different cowboy poses in 28mm that might cost me something like $9,000. USD

The molds (master and production) might cost me another $400, at about 30 figs a pound for use of lead I can get 900 figs out of 30 pounds of lead (or whatever mix I use) at about $10 USD a pound (which looks like it is current price of tin, lead is about 1.22 a pound right now from what I am seeing) you are looking at another $300. USD

So that is about $700 USD in production costs for nearly the first 1000 figs. Even if I am off by half in this I am still looking at only $1,400 which is still no where near my cost for the sculpts.

For that first 1000 figs then my total cost, given the higher production cost is a little more than a dollar each, 90% of that coming from sculpting costs rather than production costs.

For a range of pikemen, I can make 4 poses of phalangites and maybe even 6 different command figs. That is a total of 10 sculpts. So my production cost is the same for 1000 figs and my sculpting cost is only $3,000. I might even be able to pay the sculptor only a little more for some head swaps (and other small changes) for even more variety.

There my sculpting costs are only about 75% of my outlay and someone is likely to buy 20 of any one given figure than they are with my cowboy range.

True more people are going to buy cowboys than other stuff but still.

Some manufacturers will eat the difference to keep their prices the same. But that doesn't mean that some ranges don't cost more than others to produce.

the cost of spinning molds is really very little compared to the cost of having the figure produced in the first place, at least initially. If it weren't so anyone could produce figures, lead is cheap enough.

"If I have to pay someone to sculpt 30 different cowboy poses in 28mm that might cost me something like $9,000.00 USD"

Ah. I see where you're coming from. A number of manufacturers in the UK (Dixon, Essex, Peter Pig, Ground Zero Games to name a few) do their own sculpting, so consequently don't incur such heavy upfront costs as you suggest. Since their production costs are the same regardless as to how many figures customers purchase, they can therefore afford to sell their figures at the same price across all ranges.

One example of a manufacturer that produces bad sculpts is not likely to blow anyone's arguments out of the water when most others cost more. Everyone has their standards. If you just wanted to put something on the table, then you could use your existing figures for stand-ins. I think most gamers on this forum probably wouldn't be keen on that though.

BTW – Why does Dixon cost the same as Perry?

As a point I do believe that Dixon is a larger company than some of the basement level companies out there. They have different cost requirements to break even/make a profit.

"One example of a manufacturer that produces bad sculpts"

Dixon produces bad sculpts? That is your opinion. The principle of production costs I have outlined still holds true regardless of the quality of the final product. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

"BTW – Why does Dixon cost the same as Perry?"

They aren't. Dixon are £0.95 GBP per figure. Perry are £1.00 GBP per figure.

"is not likely to blow anyone's arguments out of the water when most others cost more."

With respect, sir, you are missing the point. My premise is that some manufacturers are able to charge the same per figure regardless of the subject. I am comparing the cost of Dixon cowboys with Dixon Napoleonics, not Dixon cowboys with some other manufacturer. The argument that "cowboys cost more because we sell fewer of them" does not apply in my experience.

Skye … a reasonable question, but when it comes to prices, "value" is in the eyes of the beholder.

Can you pay $2 USD for a figure? Yes. Can you pay more? Yes. At what point do you balance quality of sculpt and height of figure versus the cost?

I started my Wild West collection with Artizan. At $10 USD for three figures, I was happy. They have nice details and I like their size.
link

A friend of mine bought some Dixon (25mm). He paid about $2 USD per figure. They are okay quality sculpts (to my eyes). Are they up to the standards of Artizan? Not in my eyes. Were they worth saving a dollar, to have figures that are not sculpted as well, and which are shorter than mine? No, I would have gladly paid the dollar to get taller, better sculpts.

link

I think Black Scorpion figures have an amazing look to them:
link

Cost about what Artizan do. But they are 32mm and not 28mm. Some people will mix them with other ranges, but I have yet to break down and do that. Again, it's all in the eyes of the beholder.

Foundry look quite nice to me. I don't have any yet, but plan to give a pack a try and see how well they mix with my Artizans:

link

And price-wise, they still work out to under $4 USD a figure.

Would I pay more than $4 USD for a western figure on foot? No. I don't care about the economics of sculpting and creating molds for figures that won't well a pile of minis like the "rank and file" examples above.

And I positively cringe at the idea of paying $8 USD for a single 28mm foot figure (I can think of some sci-fi games out there that fall into this category). But that's me.

Pictors doesn't even blink when he shells out $4-8 for a single figure, and he doesn't think he's being over charged. Perception becomes reality, so he's not being over charged.

So, in my opinion, yes, you can pay $2 USD for a figure. Or you can pay $3-4 for a figure. Or you can pay a lot more. Only YOU can judge for yourself the quality of the sculpt and the size of the figure to the cost of that figure, and determine what seems reasonable, and what is too much.

Steve

Pictors: I think that we are all familiar with the costs and economics of producing a range of figures. That said, I will never pay $17 USD for a figure no matter how nice it is (well, OK, if Tom Meier sculpts Frederick the Great and Seydlitz than I will throw all reason out the window).

I think that what you have are a number of figure ranges catering to the skirmish game crowd that are marketing themselves as "premium" figure ranges, thereby pricing their figures accordingly. They are perfectly fine figures (Black Scorpion comes to mind) and consumers willing pay the premium for them. Nothing wrong with that. I don't think that their cost per figure is any different than those of lower cost figure ranges. It's just that the Premium boys have chosen to target a different customer base.

There are other competing ranges that offer decent figures at lower prices. I would recommend ranges such as Dixon, Connoisseur, Pass of the North (is this now Knuckleduster?) and Old Glory/Blue Moon for very nice figures. If you join the OG Army, you would be receiving a new cowboy figure every month, BTW.

At the end of the day, each company has to price its figures at a level where the individual can make some money, otherwise it makes no business sense.

I think figures you choose is very much a matter of taste, what I would comment on is that poorly caste/sculpted figures are much a=harder to make look presentable and so can have a counter productive effect when trying to paint them as you have to put more energy into them to make them look OK let alone great.

Mike, I'm not attacking your point. You're attacking my point. What could I miss?

I think we just fail to see eye to eye. To me, .95 and 1 pound are the same.

Of course sculptors sculpt for free
Lead/tin/pewter is free
Mold making machines are free, as are bubble packers
Galvanized rubber is free
Spin casting machines are free
Space for equipment and mold storage and inventory and business records is free
People to do all the work producing, packing, storing, shipping, and advertising miniatures will do it for free
Advertising is free
Shipping products (boxes etc) are free
So what do manufacturers think they are doing charging us the equivilant of a pack of cigarettes or gallon of gas, or a Big Mac supersized lunch for one of their products?? What nerve eh?? We should all just make our own miniatures and save all that huge outlay of cash! We all have the talent and time and the desire, right? right??

Or maybe the value of what we are getting for our money is not so out of line after all when you compare it to what we spend on some other stuff so casually every day!

as for p[oor quality figures being harder to paint for the tabletop, I am not sure I buy this.

In ancients I find Old Glory to be very easy to paint, certainly easier paint than the exquisitely detailed castings from some other companies. i don't like painting 20mm plastics because all the fine detail is hard to get looking right. I find Irregular 6mm much easier to paint than Baccus 6mm, even though I think the Baccus are better sculpted figures.

It all depends on what you are looking for in a figure. Me I wish the old Heritage USA "Dungeon Dwellers" line was still available. Rough sculpting to be sure, but they looked great with stain technique painting.

Mike, yes, unpainted. While I can't paint I still do paint…and I'm content most of the times.

Gracias,

Glenn

Pictors, Thank you for your viewpoint and the data.

That said <grin> I work on a budget that limits my buys to a reasonable level of insanity (Thank God my wife is a crafter – Quilting anyone?) so $8 USD a figure unpainted is outside likelihood. However, as Der Alte Fritz said, individuals could be exceptions. Anyone wanting my money can ask off line and I will gladly list my Achilles Heel of personalities…

Gracias,

Glenn

I'm certainly not saying that I would put a French Waterloo army on the table at $8 USD a pop. I'm just saying that there are various really cool figs out there that I wanted. I'm only going to get one of them and I recognize that if cool figs like that are to be made then the price will be higher as they are only going to sell so many of them.

The one example that I can think of in the last year, besides all of the black scorpion character figs I've bought, is Huron Blackheart from 40K. I thought the idea of the fig was cool from way back in the 2nd edition chaos codex. So when they released a fig for him last year I bought it right away. I didn't care that it was $17, it was a neat character, the sculpt was great and it looks great now that I've painted it up. The $17 USD was well worth it.

Pictors: I understand your point. If the figure is something that you really wanted and it brings you enjoyment, then whatever the price was, it was well worth it to you.

I agree that I would take pause to field 300 casting armies at $8 USD a pop, but I'm less likely to mind the price if I only need 1 to 10 figures.

Isn't it great that there is so much choice and so many different price points to fit all of our needs? We are truly blessed for choices these days.

I understood your point, Pictors, and I even agree in the case of specific characters. I would have to balance the cost of the individual figure (and it's quality) versus the normal/henchmen/mooks/posse/mob/filler figures I might want.

There are certain personalities that I would make that sacrifice for in a heart beat. Not DAF's Fredrick the Great but a select few would be temptation that would require me to sacrifice to get that figure.

Gracias,

Glenn

Seattlegamer of course covers the "Eye of the Beholder" part of miniatures buying. For me it's going to be an occassional game of Gutshot (as opposed to aerial games in 1/300th or 1/600th scale) so I am looking for reasonable (whatever that turns out to be) quality figures for small groups that I can paint without feeling that my lack of painting skills are making a great figure devalued somehow.

My goal is to try and keep most figures in the elusive "25mm" size with the occassional "28mm" figure (obviously taller but not outlandish in size) scattered in the mix.

Besides someday I may have to run a scenario with the GZG Indonesian Commonwealth battling with the militia of a western theme colony…

Gracias,

Glenn

LOL, DocDennis1968,

I don't smoke, only drink red wine with dinner to attempt to raise my "dangerously low" cholesterol {Doctor's words] upon doctor's order {okay, I am beginning to enjoy some wine,) and passionately try to avoid fast food (60 pounds worth of reasons.) But I hear your point. Miniatures (and making bead jewelry for gifts) are my major vices, besides my wife. In an attempt to have some moderation I limit my expenses in both hobbies. The more Pictor's out there the more I can justify sliding my expenses up a $1 USD USD or so per 25mm figure, especially since most of my "main line" purchases are in aerial miniatures.

Gracias,

Glenn

<<It all depends on what you are looking for in a figure. Me I wish the old Heritage USA "Dungeon Dwellers" line was still available. Rough sculpting to be sure, but they looked great with stain technique painting.>>

Dave, they are! We have the range! minifigs.com

Tom Dye
GFI

I haven't read the other replies yet, but…

what price range for a 25/28mm figure should I deem "reasonable" as I add Mexicans, Indians, Female gunfighters (yeah, a little fantasy,) and townspeople to my collection?

I'd say "Whatever you're willing to pay for a miniature that you're happy with when you get it through the post."

I've read the other replies now.

Mike, do you consider companies like, say for instance, "Hasslefree" to be ripping people off?

No flamewar intended, I'd just like to see your rationalisation if the answer is "Yes".

"I do believe that Dixon is a larger company than some of the basement level companies out there."

They've also been amortising the cost of those sculpts out for a LONG time now. I don't recall when the cowboys were produced (mid 90s?), but they certainly weren't done as part of the recent wave of cowboys to go with LoToW.

In fact it's quite surprising, when you come to look at it, how long some of the ranges have been around; I've got WI and MW issues from back in the 80s where companies like Redoubt and Dixon were announcing new figures in lines which they're still selling now. After 20 years, they'll have paid off the initial costs, and the figure prices can be down to lead + time (small) + c.o.d.b. + profit.

Back to the question. I would find it hard to pay more than $2.00 USD for a really good figure. OG25 has the best deal, especially with the "army" discount. Their cowboys aren't the best sculpts in my opinion. I like the Artizan ones better. However, OG25 has other lines that will fit into an old west game just fine. For example, check out the Mexican irregulars, mexican civilians, and the wagon train civilians. All a good deal.

I think a trip to e-bay is where you should start there are lots of auctions on Wild west out there at the moment as it was the craze of 2005-6 and people are selling off unwanted and unpainted lead at reasonable prices.

Oh, I'm there but right now it's siesta time for lead cowboys.. Plastic toy cowboys galore…

Gracias,

Glenn

"Mike, do you consider companies like, say for instance, "Hasslefree" to be ripping people off?"

I just picked one of their ranges at random. "Non-coms and civilians" £3.50 GBP for a single figure?

When similar figures from GZG average £1.00 GBP per figure, guess which ones I'm going to buy?
As for the quality of the sculpts, if anything I'd say that the GZG figures are a lot better than the Hasslefree ones. YMMV.

"After 20 years, they'll have paid off the initial costs, and the figure prices can be down to lead + time (small) + c.o.d.b. + profit."

I think you'll find it was ever that way, it's not some new phenomenon. AFAIK, Dixon have always charged the same per figure regardless of range.

"To me, .95 and 1 pound are the same."

Look after the pennies and pounds will look after themselves. I'd rather have 1000 at £0.95 GBP each than 1000 at £1.00 GBP each wouldn't you?

"…When similar figures from GZG average £1.00 GBP GBP per figure, guess which ones I'm going to buy?
As for the quality of the sculpts, if anything I'd say that the GZG figures are a lot better than the Hasslefree ones. YMMV…"

Well, I own a few platoons of GZG stuff and much of the Hasslefree stuff is outside my AOIs but I mostly notice the difference as being one of style. {Oh, AOI = Area Of Interest!}

I don't think I care to get into a comparison of two companies I like to see figures from even if I don't buy from one of them because of being outside my AOIs.

A lot of "Best" comes down to subject, presentation, cultural training (not too many nude figures in this house,) and taste. SYW soldiers? Snore. AWI? I'm looking. Rational? Maybe not…

Some people love GW stuff but I ha…intensely dislike…most of that figure line for no other reason then style of the ones I have seen. And talking to one of their reps in the Midwest years ago… Petty? Maybe but it's my money.

I truly enjoy seeing Hasslefree's new figures but I don't anticipate buying any and cost is a relatively small factor in that choice. Now, if they made M-i-i-i-i-c-e in S-p-a-a-a-a-a-c-e figures…no, I'm serious! Okay there is small market for that. One person, me. Hardly economical for HF. And it is a family Business . I suspect the kids like to eat…

Gracias,

Glenn

link

Very nice but I don't need modern hostages. Don't run games on that theme (play, yes, very rarely, when others have a game going)

I like the Grimm looks but I don't need dwarves in space. The 400 fantasy dwarves (Der Kriegspieler and similar size guys) are enough for my games.
.
Villagers are cool if I was still running White Box D&D.

"Humans" are interesting but not relevant to what I am gaming. And a little bit bare for the Old West games I run in 25mm. Nice but nude doesn't sell for me. <grin>

The Not-Scobby-Doo figures are great but again…not my AOI.

Oh, and I don't play zombie games…

And HF doesn't do cowboys/etc. ("Remember our original post," I remind myself.)

I think that sums up why I have steered away from the otherwise quite interesting HF stuff. Yeah, cost is a factor but AOI and style are far more of a factor. Even if I am stuck in the 1990's cost wise…

Gracias,

Glenn

Of course, the other thing you're forgetting is Ye Good Ol' Exchange rate, which is currently making UK produced figs seem VERY expensive.

Well, true but I try and spend only money I have set aside for the hobby.

Gracias,

Glenn

"I think you'll find it was ever that way, it's not some new phenomenon. AFAIK, Dixon have always charged the same per figure regardless of range."

Hmmmmm… I just surfed on over to the dixon website..

link

…and the cowboys and napoleonics are indeed £0.95. In fact most of the rank and file are the same price… oops, spoke to soon the; Viking Chieftan is £1.00 GBP and the Women and 3 children set is £3.95!! That's £0.98 GBP each!!? How can that be??! Are they starting down that slippery slope to ripping us off? I mean really how much more can a viking CHILD cost to produce?! I would think there' LESS metal in those wee figures.

Wait a sec… the Gangsters are a staggering £5.00 GBP for four of them!? £1.25 GBP each?! GOOD GRACIOUS, Dixon has joined the rip-off club too!!!

It has to do with "economy of scale", or something like that. Anything (ANYTHING) produced in smaller quantities from Character figures to hand made furniture is going to cost more as the initial set up is more per unit than something mass produced – like rank and file figures or cheap furniture made by the thousands in China.

Not that I'm saying I'd ever pay $17 USD for a single figure or anything… but I can see why some companies – especially smaller ones – might charge more for figures produced in limited quantities.

Tim in Saskatoon,

Alas the tone and inflection in the first post I am sure you would put into the spoken word doesn't translate well in print…but I think you made your position clear [on several fronts] from the two posts. <grin>

Gracias,

Glenn

I just picked one of their ranges at random. "Non-coms and civilians" £3.50 GBP GBP for a single figure?

When similar figures from GZG average £1.00 GBP GBP per figure, guess which ones I'm going to buy?

I'd say "Whichever ones you like best and are the correct scale to fit in with your games".

We charge what we have to to survive. If we charged less we'd go out of business and lose our home.

Sure, more people would buy our miniatures if they cost a pound or two less, but we'd have to work harder to get the same level of income, and I can assure you that there's no way we could work harder.

FYI: Hasslefree is me and Sally, mostly Sally, working from our home (industrial units cost money by the way) and we have no permanent employees (which cost money too, incidentally) to take up any slack if we're ill or unable to work.

So back to my previous question; Do you think we are ripping people off?