"? SYW Austrian Dragoons & Horse Grenadiers" Topic

Been rearranging the house and can't find all my reference materials.

Plan to create an Austrian Dragoon Unit using Front Rank figures with the musket at ease.

Plan to add 3 possibly 4 Horse Grenadiers to the unit.

So may paint up 12 regular Dragoons so have full unit if Horse Grenadiers are added together to form a unit. But could leave 3 regular Dragoons out and have Horse Grenadiers included in a unit of 12.

I guess I should say what I know.
Regt has 12 companies with 2 companies to a Squadron
two of the companies would be Horse Grenadiers.

For the mixed uniforms and colourfull look would like in the future to have enough Horse Grenadiers to converge.

If converging Horse Grenadiers from different Regt's there is no Flag/ standard bearer. The Officer and Drummer would be wearing Tricornes.

Now for the Officer and Drummer's uniform colours, is there anything special on which unit they should come from or can I pick any unit?

Also is there anything I haven't thought of or should take into consideration ?

Thank You again for your help in advance. Frank

IIRC, the senior regimental commander got to choose the colors, uniform, etc. for the converged grenadiers – or the senior regiment got to select the colors as directed by the officer. It's been a while since I looked at this. I know that is how the French operated for the most part, and I think other countries followed the same protocols.

Dragoon Grenadier Offiers and Drummers wore the same headress as the rank and file. For everyday duties such as foraging, marching and in camp this would be the tricorne, but for battle all ranks of the Dragoon Grenadier companies would wear the bearskin.

I believe each Austrian Dragon or Kürassier Regiment had 12 normal companies in 6 eskadrons plus 1 grenadier or Carabinier compagnie, after 1758 this was reduced to 5 eskadrons plus 1 elite comp, the elites tending to be grouped as separate units for the campaigne.
the normal eskadron should be 120-140 men & the elite compagnie around 100 men

You could form an actual unit from Lobositz
Grenadier zu Pferde (Nr. 37, 7, 6, 1)
so a nice colourful unit of jackets/cuffs of Blue/red, Blue/Red, Blue/Red, Green/red – oh well not so colourful!

maybe the Karabinier zu Pferde (Nr. 4, 8, 10, 12, 14, 21, 29, 33)
hmmm all white coats/red cuffs

who said the Austrians were colourful :¬)

why do I keep reading about 2 elite companies ??

Graf Bretlach where are you getting that Lobositz OB from, I've been looking for a good one for a while, thanks.

Daryl

Have you looked at the Crusader horse grenadiers and dragoons. They have their carbines holstered, they way they should be, and they are similar in size and heft to the Front Rank figures. The Front Rankers are nice, it's just that I never cared for that pose with the dragoons holding the carbine.

Daryl
its a compilation of various bits of information gathered over time, still a lot of questions, there are several good books on google

Thank You for all the info so far.

The reason for the Front Rank Grenadiers with Musket at ease is that I already have enough Crusader Dragoons for 2 to 3 units, and wanted something with a different look.

As to Seneffe's comment that the Officer and Drummer would wear the bearskin in battle, any other opinions ?
The reason I wonder is that Front Rank or Crusader don't make the Horse Grenadier figures for Officer and drummer in bearskin, and what I had heard before on TMP.

As to the Officer and drummers uniform being from a senior Regt.
Would using DR7 Batthyany which, according to Pengel and Hurt, the year of inception was 1631 which seems to make it the senior Dragoon Regt.

One of the reasons I an so picky on clarification is that I an considering getting a painting service to do the Dragoon Regt. with Horse Grenadiers and the officer and Drummer also for the converged Horse Grenadiers.

I'm really pretty sure about Dragoon Grenadier company officers and drummers wearing bearskins on special occasions, just like their infantry colleagues, whose uniform conventions the Dragoons followed in several other respects. IIRC the late Peter Gilder had some headswapped Grenadier officers for the Dragoons of his 25mm Hinchcliffe Austrian SYW army. Gilder was actually the designer of these figures but hadn't included Dragoon Grenadier officers in the range for reasons of economy.

However, if you don't fancy headswapping, there is a way round this at least for the officers of provisional combined Horse Grenadier units. Their CO would be a Major (or sometimes Lt-Col) from one of the parent regiments supplying their Grenadiers, ie from the regimental staff and therefore wearing the normal tricorne in all circumstances.

Now I believe this CO would be chosen not on the basis of which regiment was senior, but which individual major held seniority over his counterparts in the other regiments supplying troops to the unit. That means either a) you can just pick the uniform you most like the look of, or b) you need to do some serious research in Vienna, to find out the relative seniority of Dragoon majors at particular times. On balance I'd recommend option a).

Daryl

You'll find good sketches for Lobositz at the Hesse State digital Archive in Marburg
digam.net/thema.php?lpt=177
Go to Folder 24 and get doc 13 or 14. It has all regimental names as well as generals. You'll find many OBs with Henry Lloyds books at google library. It also has Lobositz OB. Just ignore the 4 coy/3 bat organisation for the Austrian Inf. Should be 2 bats with 6 coys.
The ranking of the elite coys in converged units should be identical to that of the regiments ranking thithin the line of battle. That would be my best guess. It should be by seniority of a regiments chef. Emperor and Archdukes senior, thereafter the marshals and generals absed on date of appointment. So, Browne, asside of the Emperor regt., should hold a rather senior position, for instance, for the infantry.

Wonderful web archives, crogge1757. Thank you for the link.

Excellent I'd forgotten about that site.

Also agree on seniorities – always went on inhaber eg. Kaisers Regiments always most senior followed by Erzherzogs & herzogs of the Empire etc

"The ranking of the elite coys in converged units should be identical to that of the regiments ranking thithin the line of battle. That would be my best guess. It should be by seniority of a regiments chef."

I think in practice it was more complicated than this (depending on country & period).

While seniority of the regiment was by inhaber/proprietor, the placement in the line of battle often depended on the seniority of the deputised commander in the field/on the day.

For the 'extremes' of seniority (realy high or realy low) usually producing the same result, but 'in the middle' makes predicting battle arrays an often impossible task.

Daryl