"History of China/korea/southeast Asia" Topic

i'm looking into this region as my primary ancients field. Are there any suggestions on a good overview of the region up until 1400ish/ Looking esp for army orginization, battles, illustrations would be good.
I know osprey titles would do, but I don't want to have to collect the bazillion neccessary to get a feel for the area!

I am working on an Osprey style book about the Three Kingdom Korea era.

I also hav one on the Burma-Siam region as well. The one on the area further east is still in the note gathering phase.

There's an Osprey coming out later this year on the Japanese invasion of Korea which will include China's involvement.

Fantastic Rudy! I'd love to see an Osprey style book on the Three Kingdoms.

Dadi&Piombo magazine covers the Mongol Invasion of Korea (1217-1364) with a 2 issues article (issue 29 and 30).

For a preview of the magazines link
link

D&P is double language so full English text.
Also available in US from On Military Matters and in UK from Caliver Books.

Osprey released a best of book for the Chinese called "Soldiers of the Dragon, Chinese Armies 1500 BC – 1840". It collected all of CJ Peers work in one volume, covers all the major conflicts China was involved in and includes gorgeous colour plate illustrations and colour photos of actual arms and armour on virtually every second page. It's very top down history, very boad brush stroak and has virtually nil in terms of information of organisation. I've got it on my lap now and it is a gorgeous hard cover book.

It's on special at Amazon for $18.96, at that price it's worth it for the pictures as a painting and modelling guide.

…I can't believe I just spelt "stroke", "stroak"…

At the moment there are very few noteworthy books on ancient and medieval Chinese armies. That is slowly changing, but it takes time to translate the material.

The best sources I have been able to find are located on JSTOR and ProQuest, an online resource for dissertations and papers from universities around the world.

I've also found Professors are willing to share their work, including material they have not published.

Chris

Thanks, that is an avenue I never even considered. I probably will need to expand my horizons here – I am using the army lists from the Piquet Archon rules, but there doesn't seem to be nearly as many figures to match the lists.

Hm, I'm not familiar with Piquet Archon lists. Do they have the Song Dynasty or Tang army list?

Chris

They have both, assuming that the Song Dynasty is an alternate spelling for Song. The lists are fairly extensive, although not exhaustively descriptive. The lists are part of the Archon rulebook so you don't need piles of army lists for each era. The system is quite different from any other miniature game, I enjoy it quite a bit.

psiloi, can you scan the Song army and e-mail it to me? I'm curious to see how their list compares to what I came up with. I gathered as much information as I could over the past couple of years and put together a list.

shurite7@yahoo.com

Chris

Shurite – I will do so . Be patient it may be a couple of days!

psiloi, will do.

That last message was full of errors. I was able to email the list today, please let me know how it turns out. I can try again(and again ) if there are problems. Also would like to see your compilation if possible.

PS – I ordered the Soldiers of the Dragon book. Looks nice from what I've seen.

Psiloi, e-mail received and replied too. Let me know if you didn't receive it.

I've seen the Soldiers of the Dragaon and it isn't too bad. It is a compilation of various Osprey book's. I don't like the idea of a one book covering multiple dynasties. There is enough material to write a book on each single dynasty. Sadly, some of the material needs to be translated from Chinese.

C

Thank you, I received the email this morning. I also received the book yesterday, it has most or all of the Osprey from the period. It is the perfect start for someone beginning this period.
I wil need to search for other stuff eventually. I really do not know the name of a single battle in China – not counting the Mongol invasion. I wargame campaign level games, so the whole history is just waiting to game for me.

I have found the battles in the far east were much larger than in western Europe. Most of my studies have covered the Song Dynasty, but I have touched on the Qin and Han.

A nice scenario for a campaign would be Han vs. Rome or Shi Houngdi(first emperor of China / think terracotta army) vs. Alexander.

C

I want to focus on the Qin(Ch'in) era, working up to the Sung. I was looking to start campaign games with the growth of the various dynastic periods, the specific outcomes perhaps different, but the overall picture growing toward unification as historically came to pass.

I would also love to do a scenario based on China being the expansionist power, it really should have happened. What if europe had been relegated to second place on the world scene?

I can easily envision european powers butting up against established chinese colonies, with many of the native peoples allied with the less warlike chinese powers.
Not sure if any figures exising would fit the bill.

In terms of territory China did go through periods of expansion. Especially when it came to the Han and Tang.

The Tang started expanding west and met up with the Arabs, but lost the battle of Talas. One of the problems the Tang as well as the Arabs had was the distance (from their homeland or base of operation) and sometimes lack of resources to feed their large armies.

The Han had similar problems when heading west especially when dealing with the nomadic tribes like the Hsiung nu. Also, their large armies would have had difficulty sustaining themselves in remote regions. Had the Han made it further west they would have had the same problem the Romans did; the Parthians. Although, the Qin and Han had plenty of cavalry & chariots their army wasn't as mobile as the parthian light cav nor as armoured as the Parthian cataphract. Nonetheless, I'm sure it would be a fun battle to play.

If you take a look at the invasions into Central Asia the successful ones were the armies (hephtalites-white huns, seljuks & mongols for example) that could move from place to place and live off the land. Those that had a supply line were not as successful.

I did some research for Chinese figs and the results were less than desirable. However, the trend is changing, Qin and Han are fairly easy to come by, but Tang, Song & Ming are very limited. I did paint a Ming army for someone and it turned out quite well. Nice and colorful and the dragon/lion shields make the armies look great.

If you take a different view on history, instead of Eurocentric think Sinocentric, Europe was a relegated second world. Science and living standards were generally better in China than in Europe, especially in the medieval era. During the ancient era I would say both area's had advantages and disadvantages. During the dark ages the near east, Central Asia and China flurished leaving Europe behind.

If I can find the document which discusses the Han army I'll forward it to you. At the moment I can't remember where I put it.

Chris

Thanks for the info. I am currently reading "1421 The Year Chine discovered America" History is really turned upside down.
I always was enamoured of the few Chinese figures I came across, I have decided this will be my main focus in wargaming – since the Greco-Roman world is represented to such larger degree.

Hmmm, I've got the older "1421: The Year China Discovered The World". Do you know if it's just the same text with a Yankee-friendly title, or is it something else?

In any event, if you're looking to wargame the Qin period, the "Records of the Grand Historian" by Sima Qian (Ssuma Ch'ien) are pretty much the definitive text. The guy was the official court historian for the Han Dynasty, and he penned a history of everything up to that time, including some detailed campaign info on the Warring States period and the rise and fall of the Qin.

If you read Chinese, you can find the complete text at various places on the web; if not, you'll have to buy/borrow an English translation (they're all still under copyright).

"1421: The Year China Discovered The World" I wonder if they changed the title here in the US in order to promote sales.

I agree, Sima Qian is an important source. There are several other sources; Song Shi (official history of the Song Dynasty); Yuan Shi (Off. hist. Yuan Dynasty) + there are military manuals with good detail. One major problem though – they are in Chinese which I can not read.

C

This might be close to what you're looking for, although a bit on the pricey side:

1-75470 Drompp, Michael R. TANG CHINA AND THE COLLAPSE OF THE UIGHUR EMPIRE Tang China's minister Li Deyu writings form the basis of this reconstruction of the Tang response to the collapse of the Uighur Empire in 840 CE, military info throughout text, bibio, index. 1 vol, 368 pgs 2004 LEIDEN, BRILL PUBLISHERS hardcover ……$140.00

For much older history and much lower price:

1-33470 Sawyer, Ralph D. and Sawyer, Mei-chin translators SEVEN MILITARY CLASSICS OF ANCIENT CHINA, THE Translation of seven essays, written between 500BC and 700AD, appendicies on the Chariot, Cavalry and Arms/Armour. Extensive chapter notes on all seven essays, biblio, index.1 vol, 568 pgs 2007 US, BASIC BOOKS pb ……$18.00

Dennis at OMM

Hi Psiloi,
Suggest you try:-
Warlords of China 700 BC-1662AD by Chris Peers
Arms and Armour press 1998
ISBN 1-85409-401-7
I found it excellent and it contains suggestions for further reading
regards
Paul F

While you're waiting for your books to arrive you can try out

chinahistoryforum.com

Very informative and the posters there do tend to reference their statements.