"SDKFZ 234/2 (puma) deployed in Italy" Topic

i am assuming that none of these were ever deployed in Italy, however if i am wrong in my assumption can you tell me which units had them.

thanks
jon

I don't think you're wrong.

Allen

Don`t think there were any Pumas in Italy either.

Only in zoos I'm afraid.

I think they only made it to the Eastern Front and a few in Normandy

Maybe 100 Pumas were built. I game with a guy and a Puma or three are in EVERY game.

101. Not to be pedantic or anything.

Allen

this is vague on numbers but has some nice footage and info on them- my 2nd fave AFV after a Jagdpanther.

youtube.com/watch?v=8ARWTzzcJec

Yes, the Puma was not exactly the most common German armoured car. Still, it makes nice recce element for the Late War Kampfgruppes with their battalions of JagdTigers and Tiger IIs and all those blokes with MP44s and IR sights.

No probs that was what i thought but you know tinternet its full of untrue facts, missquotations, and i thought that there were none.

thanks
jon

"I game with a guy and a Puma or three are in EVERY game."

Good point, I still have to see a WWII game with a Panzer II or a German captured B1.

Palafox

Check out our game from Sunday – link

I had a PzIII and an R-35, not that they lasted long :(

Maybe 100 Pumas were built. I game with a guy and a Puma or three are in EVERY game.

You could be talking about me :-)

I love Pumas and I tend to put a couple of them in just about every one of my 1944-5 games. Far more than the 101 that were made have been knocked out on my game tables. Unrealistic, I know, but gaming is supposed to be fun too.

In my defense, I'll note that Tigers are rare in may games, which are mostly PzK IV's and Stug's, along with some Panthers and Hetzers (we're talking microarmor here).

Maybe 100 Pumas were built. I game with a guy and a Puma or three are in EVERY game.

On the bright side, they're just an armored car. That way, he can have the cool factor, and you can avoid the 'uber' factor.
-Kle.

I've seen games where there were more Tigers on the table than appeared in any TO&E other than Kursk – and they weren't fighting Kursk.

I've often thought it fun to give the German players King Tigers, Jagd Tigers, Tiger IE, and Jagd Panthers for representation on the table top against the Americans after D-Day. Then you had the Americans finding/spotting the German armor and poof there would be the huge beast of a tank and the American tank commanders would run and hide or they would charge forth in huge numbers into the German AT gun positions to get close enough to kill the "King Tiger" which in reality when it blew up was a Pz III or IV or a Stug! It made the game more interesting and fun because the Germans would use their tanks like they WERE the beasts and scare the pants off the American players. Only after the Americans blew up a few of these beasts at medium or long range did they realize they weren't fighting them!

Sure enhanced the fun in the game and raised the tensions among the players. The Germans who hoped that they weren't found out, and the Americans who were scared to death until the first few kills.

Despite the low production numbers, in the units they were given to they were deployed in large numbers. So while most allied units would not encounter them, when a unit did, they met a bunch of them (though not always of course).

So putting a few on the board could realistically represent a PUMA unit doing aggressive recon or fighting in an economy of force type scenario. From what I understand, the SS unit that received them in particular were very aggressive with them. Of course, IIRC the SS often used their recon units as extra panzgrenz and assault troops (a tactic criticized by the Wehrmacht as wasteful).

I think the units that received them (off hand) were:

Panzer Lehr
2nd Panzer
21st Panzer?
And 2nd SS (IIRC)

Most were used in Normandy, though some of the ones not destroyed in the retreat to the Rhine did manage to fight in the Bulge.

Very cool AC, and probably my fave vehicle of the war.

So throw 'em on the table! They are fun to use.

Gents;

As surmized above, no SdKfz 234/2 "Puma's" went to Italy. Distribution was as follows:

25 to 2. PzD in April/May/June 1944 (France)
26 to 130. Pz-LehrD in May/June 1944 (France)
16 to 1. SS PzD on 1 July 1944 (France)
03 to 1. SS PzD on 1 Nov. 1944 (France)
10 to 2. PzD in Nov/Dec 1944 (France)
13 to 20. PzD in Nov/Dec 1944 (Russia)

Hope that helps.

Mark E. Horan

Oops, 1st SS.

Looks like Lehr and 2nd received the largest numbers.

I've often thought it fun to give the German players King Tigers, Jagd Tigers, Tiger IE, and Jagd Panthers for representation on the table top … which in reality when it blew up was a Pz III or IV or a Stug!

This sounds like a great idea.

Distribution was as follows: …

Thanks for the numbers Mark. I guess I'll lay off of the Pumas in my east front scenarioes but keep them in all of my west front games :-)

Thanks for the link Richard. Great game indeed and seem a lot of fun.

Which ruleset did you use?.

The thing about the Puma is it 'proves' that German vehicles were always better than corresponding Allied ones. After all, it has a long 50mm! This makes it popular and people over-estimate the frequency of things that are popular.

Whenever I use French Panhard ACs for the Germans in Russia in 1941, I get all sorts of questions and weird looks from people. Despite the fact that the Germans used about 200 of them during the invasion. In contrast, the only reaction I get to Pumas is 'cool!', even though they only built 101 of the things.

Thanks

Rules by Charles Grant from his book "Battle – practical wargaming" ages old, but simple and to the point.

Over the years I`ve added bits to create more accurate orbats and include more infantry weapons (LMGs, Panzerfaust etc).

Chris Pz Tp;

I designed a big Command Decision scenario for a group where a Combat Command of a US Armored Division was pushing through France in August 1944. Big intro of overall situation to each player with reports of many tigers having been knocked out in the preceeding days. Table was 16'x6'. The US goal was enter and cross the tanble length wise. Typical French hedgerow terrain with hidden deployment. There were rumors of a German Armour training school in the area.

The German player had a kampfgruppe consisting of elements of a heer panzer division Recon battalion reinforced – basically a couple of SdKfz 231/232 troops, a platoon of pioneers in SdKfz 251s, an ad-hoc company of recon infantry in Sdkfz 250/1s, light trucks, and motorcycles (one platoon each), an 5-cm PAK 38 platoon, two tank platoons (one PzKfw IVG, one PzKfw V [elite]) and a PzJgIV platoon. There was a single mobile 8-cm mortar platon and a fixed (no fuel) on board battery of 10,5 cm howitzers for support. There was also a huge column of German trucks on one road entirely abandodned (out of fuel).

The caviat was that the models I used were a King Tiger for the Panther, a Tiger for the Pz IV, a Jadg-Panther for the JgPz IV, an 8,8-cm Pak 43 for the PaK 38, and Pumas for the SdKfz 231/232s. There were also a Pz IV, a StuG III, and several half-tracks visible in the truck convoy when it appeared (mis-id'd trucks of course). When German stuff was knocked out (what little was), I casually replaced the wrecks with burning versions of what they actually were, after a US unit had passed by at close range.

The post game conference was a hoot. After all, has anyone ever read a US battle report in Normandy where everything they fought wasn't a Tiger, Panther, or an 88???

Mark

Mark,
Sounds like a great game!

By the way, the 8-wheeled armored cars were expensive to produce. I saw in one book that costs to produce a Puma, given in Reichsmarks, was about half of the cost of a Panther.